Okay, kids. Play nice and don’t call one another names, however silly the names and however true you consider them to be.
I think that my position was somewhat well related, given all the circumstances.
Is this the general idea of George MacDonald’s sermon on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit:
It’s the Holy Spirit who brings pardon & as long as one is blaspheming Him, the Holy Spirit (IOW resisting Him in his heart), they cannot be pardoned, either in this age or the next. For as long as one rejects the One Who reveals the need for pardon, it’s impossible to repent of one’s sins & be pardoned.
“It denotes the conscious and wicked rejection of the saving power and grace of God towards man. Only the man who sets himself against forgiveness is excluded from it. In such cases the only remedy is to deliver up to Satan that he may learn not to blaspheme (1 Tim 1:20)” (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, TDNT, ed. Kittel, Vol.1, p.624, by Beyer).
1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.
Sounds good to me. You cannot grant true forgiveness without repentance (a change of heart and mind) on the part of the offender. You can pardon him—yes. That is you can hold no ill feelings toward him or make any requirements of him. But true forgiveness implies a restoration of relationship, and this requires repentance.
The words of our Lord:
(Luke 17:3) Watch yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and IF he repents, forgive him.
He didn’t say, “If your brother sins, forgive him” but “If he REPENTS, forgive him.”
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This could be the greatest misuse of scripture I have ever seen. I have no idea how you can pardon someone and have (hold) no ill feelings toward them but not be granting forgiveness. You truly are a Neanderthal works righteousness connoisseur.
This is crazy. But, we’ve been here before.
Good luck Paidion.
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No it doesn’t — your cart is completely unshackled from the horse. True forgiveness is choice, an act of pure grace… it only requires obedience — obedience to Jesus’ words.
Jesus’ injunction TO BELIEVERS is that IF A BROTHER repents THEN forgiveness CANNOT be withheld, period!
Mt 18:35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you IF each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
Your free-choice ability to forgive whomever directly affects God’s forgiveness towards you — the choice is yours and does NOT require any compunction on another’s part towards you…
Mt 6:14-15 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
We only have to follow Jesus’ lead… “Father forgive them…” — repentance was NOT a requirement for the Father to hear the Son and so graciously act accordingly.
I dealt with these quite a while ago. “Trespasses” are blunders, and so there’s nothing of which to repent, and there’s no broken relationship that needs to be restored. A trespasser might express regret for having trespassed, but a trespass is a mistake—not a deliberate act. You didn’t accept my explanation at the time; indeed if I remember correctly, I think you ridiculed it, so you probably will continue to maintain your stance.
Yes it was. There is no evidence that the Father forgave His killers immediately. He forgave them when they repented—and they DID repent, were baptized, becoming Christians.
Peter’s words to them as recorded in Acts 2:
22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know —
23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.
25 For David says concerning him, "’I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; my flesh also will dwell in hope.
27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life; you will make me full of gladness with your presence.’
29 "Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne,
31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.
33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.
34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "’The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand,
35 until I make your enemies your footstool."’
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."
37 ¶ Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."
40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”
41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
Then they all went home, 8 1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11 “No one, sir,” she said.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
I’m not sure you see the glaring hole in your logic… the Father’s unilateral forgiveness came FIRST… thus precipitating the repentant response that THEN followed. Paul by the revelation of Christ understood this…
Rom 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
Well, sure.
God’s goodness, forbearance and patience should not be despised (discounted).
Certainly God’s goodness leads us to repentance.
And once we repent, He forgives us!
Another “glaring hole” in “my” logic? I don’t think so. Rather “my” logic in both instances is impeccable.
An age is equivalent to a lifetime. Considering an average lifetime is between 50-75 years…“this age nor the age to come” would mean 100-150 years.
So Don, are you saying that Romans 2:4 says that his goodness, forbearance, and long suffering does not lead to repentance? In the beginning of the verse it says ‘Or you despise’ this is truly a commitment that Christ did these things in spite of their possible lack of understanding. 
The ‘Or do you despise’ is the rub… I would say the thing Christ did was beyond what any of them were ready to concede to, though for us it is a given… for the first century Jews it was life and death. The understanding of history and context is important in my view. 
That verse doesn’t say that those three lead to repentance; it says that God’s GOODNESS leads to repentance. And I have already said that I believe His goodness does lead to repentance in my reply to Davo.
However, having said that, let me affirm that I have no problem at all including God’s forbearance and patience also working to lead us to repentance.
Indeed… and I understand that goodness to be forgiveness that aids repentance. It’s in the same league as reconciliation, i.e., an established reality, which once realised in repentance all many of blessing opens up. Jesus ministered forgiveness to many quite apart from any required repentance… His forgiveness being a gift.
But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (Mt.6:15)
Matthew 5:7
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Matthew 6:14
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you.
Matthew 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you, unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
Mark 11:26
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 6:12,14,15 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors…
Luke 6:37,38 Judge not, and you shall not be judged: condemn not, and you shall …
Mt.21:31Which of the two did the will of the father?”
They say, “The first.”
Jesus says to them, “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and the prostitutes go before you into the kingdom of God. 32For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him; and you having seen, did not even repent afterward to believe him.
Lk.3:7 Then John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore produce fruit worthy of repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.
James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that has showed no mercy; …
All good and important texts and certainly not contrary to what I’m saying.
How is it, in light of those texts, that you don’t have the cart before the horse?
Perhaps you can show how in your opinion I have. I’ve even specifically affirmed some of those texts you mentioned… it is Paidion who for example dismisses such as not pertinent because he renders forgiveness relative to what he considers “blunders” (his interpretation alone) believing this is grounds for not applying his rule of required repentance.
“His rule” also happens to be Jesus’ rule:
Watch yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and IF he repents, forgive him. (Luke 17:3)
Oh yeah… I know. You think He is saying that if the brother happens to repent, forgive him. But if he doesn’t repent, forgive him anyway. But that is not what Jesus said. He didn’t say, “If your brother sins, forgive him.” He said, “If your brother sins, rebuke him.” Jesus indicated here that forgiveness is conditional upon repentance.
- The Greek word translated as “forgive” is “αφιημι.” In the verses quoted above, the word does not mean “forgive” in the sense that I was using the word; rather it means “pardon.” When you truly forgive a person, it is in response to his repentance, and you will have restored your relationship with that person. But you can pardon a person without his repentance, and your relationship with him will probably not be restored. For example, suppose you have a business, and one of your employees has stolen some money from your till. You confront him with it, but he denies it. He hasn’t repented (hasn’t had a change of heart and mind concerning what he has done), He doesn’t regret what he did in any way, but you decide to pardon him regardless of his attitude. You require nothing of him; you don’t demand that he repay the money or make restitution in any way. But the good relationship you previously had with him has not been restored regardless of your pardoning him.
In the New Testament, we need to differentiate between the use of the word “αφιημι” as “to forgive” and its use as “to pardon.”
- The word “αφιημι” is not limited to these two uses; it has MANY different meanings. If it always means “forgive,” then Matthew 4:11 would read:
Then the devil forgave Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.
Indeed, consider all these meanings of “αφιημι” as given by the lexcon of the Onlne Bible Program:
- to send away
1a) to bid going away or depart
1a1) of a husband divorcing his wife
1b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
1c) to let go, let alone, let be
1c1) to disregard
1c2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic) 1c21) of teachers, writers and speakers
1c3) to omit, neglect
1d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
1e) to give up, keep no longer - to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
- to leave, go way from one
3a) in order to go to another place
3b) to depart from any one
3c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all mutual claims are abandoned
3d) to desert wrongfully
3e) to go away leaving something behind
3f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
3g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
3h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
3i) abandon, leave destitute