The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin


#61

Perhaps he is learning some lessons, from the Russian Orthodox, Holy Fools tradition? And how yours truly, tries to implement it? :laughing:

And cartoons can be a theological tool. Watch this short YouTube video - for proof. :laughing:


#62

Mt.12:32 And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon nor in that which is impending. (CLV)

Does the translation “be saying” (rather than “say”) imply a continuous action, and allow an interpretation that the “not be pardoned” only applies as long as one continues “saying” aught “against the Holy Spirit”? If so, then could such be pardoned at any time should they repent, either in this eon or “that which is impending”?

“The Concordant Greek Text with Literal Sublinear” states: “…who yet ever may be saying down of the spirit the holy not it-will-be-being-from-let to-him…” (Mt.12:32b). Likewise: scripture4all.org/OnlineInte … /mat12.pdf

Compare:

Heb.10:26 If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and raging fire that will consume all adversaries.

Mt.18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.


#63

Interesting group of people here :laughing: :laughing:


#64

Yes, the TRANSLATION so implies. But is it a correct translation? The tense for continuous action is the imperfect, not the aorist as in this verse. The aorist is used for a simple action, usually in the past, and not a continuous action.

I have checked many translations and none of them render the verb as “may be saying” except the CLV.


#65

Thanks, Paidon.

Most, or the vast majority, of versions say “speaks”. I wonder if that indicates a continuous action.

biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2012:32

These versions which say “speaking” are more like the CLV:

CJB One can say something against the Son of Man and be forgiven; but whoever keeps on speaking against the Ruach HaKodesh will never be forgiven, neither in the ‘olam hazeh nor in the ‘olam haba.

TLB “Even blasphemy against me or any other sin can be forgiven—all except one: speaking against the Holy Spirit shall never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.

biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2012:32

MSG “There’s nothing done or said that can’t be forgiven. But if you deliberately persist in your slanders against God’s Spirit, you are repudiating the very One who forgives. If you reject the Son of Man out of some misunderstanding, the Holy Spirit can forgive you, but when you reject the Holy Spirit, you’re sawing off the branch on which you’re sitting, severing by your own perversity all connection with the One who forgives.


#66

It could, but it might not. Consider the sentence, “Anyone who robs this bank will be imprisoned.” It probably means that anyone who robs it just once, will be imprisoned.


#67

What is the consequence that will not be pardoned (or “let off”) for blaspheming the Holy Spirit? Could it be death, whether in “this age or in the age to come” (Mt.12:32), e.g. the millennium? Perhaps an imminent or immediate death, and or divinely sanctioned capital punishment. A death that ends their opportunity for salvation by grace in their mortal life & ships them off to corrective punishment, such as in a place the rich man (Luke 16:19-31) went to? For as long as it takes.

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Spirit…why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. 5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost… Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. 10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost (Acts 5:3-6, 9-10)

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. (1 John 5:16)

27 Also if one person sins unintentionally, then he shall offer a one year old female goat for a sin offering. 28 The priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who goes astray when he sins unintentionally, making atonement for him that he may be forgiven. 29 You shall have one law for him who does anything unintentionally, for him who is native among the sons of Israel and for the alien who sojourns among them. 30 But the person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from among his people. 31‘Because he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt will be on him.’” (Numbers 15:27-31)

Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him. The alien as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death. (Leviticus 24:16)

28 A man that hath set at nought Moses’ law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:28-29)

But the LORD of hosts revealed Himself to me, “Surely this iniquity shall not be forgiven/purged/atoned you Until you die,” says the Lord GOD of hosts. (Isaiah 22:14)

20 "Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. (Isaiah 65:20)


#68

From a discussion on Christianforums.com:

Paul speaks of the age to come (Eph.1:21). In the same context he refers to multiple ages to come (Eph.2:7), as do many other Scriptures (e.g. Lk.1:33; Rev.11:15). So a sin that is not pardoned in this age or the coming age does not require it mean it can never be pardoned, or that it cannot be pardoned in an age following the coming age.

A criminal is sentenced to 20 years in prison. If he is pardoned after 10 years for good behavior or by the governor he gets out of prison early. Otherwise he is not pardoned & serves his full sentence. Then he is released. The fact he was not pardoned did not mean he stayed in prison & was punished forever. Even though he was not pardoned, he still became free when his sentence was served. Or after half his sentence was served when the governor pardoned him or he repented & changed his ways.

For some people who lied to the Holy Spirit they were not pardoned & their sentence was immediate physical death (e.g. Acts 5).

In this case a person is not pardoned. But it is limited until he die:

Isa 22:14 But the LORD of hosts revealed Himself to me, “Surely this iniquity shall not be forgiven [purged/atoned] you Until you die,” says the Lord GOD of hosts.

Was the immoral person of 1 Cor.5:4-5 pardoned while in his sin? No, he was given over to Satan for destruction that he might be saved in the day of the Lord.

Was King Nebuchadnezzar pardoned during the 7 years God made him insanely eat grass like an animal. No. Though he wasn’t pardoned, he wasn’t punished forever, either.

Here we see a sin that won’t be pardoned. It won’t be pardoned “until” they pardon others:

Mt.6:15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Similarly, the not being pardoned here is “until” a certain point:

Mt.18:34 In his anger, his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed. 35 That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you, unless you forgive your brother from your heart.

If such a horrific thing as eternal punishment were the idea in Mt.12:31-32 & Mk.3:28-29, would Christ have used the ambiguous words aion & aionios? No. He would have used words such as eternal (aidios, Rom.1:20; Jude 6), endless (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4), no end (Lk.1:33), unlimited (apeiron, by Philo). Since He never used such words, He did not teach endless annihilation or torments.

The Spirit blasphemers (Heb.10:28-29) are even worse than a “serial sinner” such as Saul of Tarsus who was persecuting Spirit filled Christians, even unto death.

Even then, all of God’s punishments are corrective, not merely pointlessly or sadistically meting out justice for justice’s sake, but for the good of all, including the offender.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses’ law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

He shall save His people (Mt.1:21), i.e. Israel (2:6), from their sins.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life’s justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."


#69

There is no unpardonable sin. :open_mouth:

You can not blaspheme the very God who loves all. No matter how hard you try. :laughing:

He made each of us the way we are, and thus we are all uniquely and wonderfully made. :smiley:
Origen, you are a dork.


#70

Congratulations, Chad! You won the argument through name-calling! :unamused:


#71

Are these the teachings of Pantelism?


#72

:laughing: :laughing: There’s an old saying ‘It’s not how you play the game, it’s whether you win or loose.’ :wink:


#73

You have no idea about pantelism because your whole focus is to slam the idea. When we can talk in a civilized manner, we’ll talk but as long as you are taking the stand you are, I would say we are at odds, but friend, when you really want to talk and not condemn, there are those who are here to answer questions. But if you continue to be … a dork, well you’ll be what it is.:unamused:


#74

Okay, kids. Play nice and don’t call one another names, however silly the names and however true you consider them to be.


#75

I think that my position was somewhat well related, given all the circumstances.


#76

Is this the general idea of George MacDonald’s sermon on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit:

It’s the Holy Spirit who brings pardon & as long as one is blaspheming Him, the Holy Spirit (IOW resisting Him in his heart), they cannot be pardoned, either in this age or the next. For as long as one rejects the One Who reveals the need for pardon, it’s impossible to repent of one’s sins & be pardoned.

“It denotes the conscious and wicked rejection of the saving power and grace of God towards man. Only the man who sets himself against forgiveness is excluded from it. In such cases the only remedy is to deliver up to Satan that he may learn not to blaspheme (1 Tim 1:20)” (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, TDNT, ed. Kittel, Vol.1, p.624, by Beyer).

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.


#77

Sounds good to me. You cannot grant true forgiveness without repentance (a change of heart and mind) on the part of the offender. You can pardon him—yes. That is you can hold no ill feelings toward him or make any requirements of him. But true forgiveness implies a restoration of relationship, and this requires repentance.

The words of our Lord:
(Luke 17:3) Watch yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and IF he repents, forgive him.

He didn’t say, “If your brother sins, forgive him” but “If he REPENTS, forgive him.”


#78

This could be the greatest misuse of scripture I have ever seen. I have no idea how you can pardon someone and have (hold) no ill feelings toward them but not be granting forgiveness. You truly are a Neanderthal works righteousness connoisseur.

This is crazy. But, we’ve been here before.

Good luck Paidion.


#79

No it doesn’t — your cart is completely unshackled from the horse. True forgiveness is choice, an act of pure grace… it only requires obedience — obedience to Jesus’ words.

Jesus’ injunction TO BELIEVERS is that IF A BROTHER repents THEN forgiveness CANNOT be withheld, period!

Mt 18:35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you IF each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Your free-choice ability to forgive whomever directly affects God’s forgiveness towards you — the choice is yours and does NOT require any compunction on another’s part towards you…

Mt 6:14-15 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

We only have to follow Jesus’ lead… “Father forgive them…” — repentance was NOT a requirement for the Father to hear the Son and so graciously act accordingly.


#80

I dealt with these quite a while ago. “Trespasses” are blunders, and so there’s nothing of which to repent, and there’s no broken relationship that needs to be restored. A trespasser might express regret for having trespassed, but a trespass is a mistake—not a deliberate act. You didn’t accept my explanation at the time; indeed if I remember correctly, I think you ridiculed it, so you probably will continue to maintain your stance.

Yes it was. There is no evidence that the Father forgave His killers immediately. He forgave them when they repented—and they DID repent, were baptized, becoming Christians.

Peter’s words to them as recorded in Acts 2:

22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know
23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.
25 For David says concerning him, "’I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; my flesh also will dwell in hope.
27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life; you will make me full of gladness with your presence.’
29 "Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne,
31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.
33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.
34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "’The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand,
35 until I make your enemies your footstool."’
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."
37 ¶ Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."
40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”
41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.