They (the demons) seem to crave physical sensation, and find being unembodied uncomfortable.
(And I see no clear biblical teaching that holy angels are totally without bodies of any kind.)
I’m most certainly convinced that the Bible teaches that angels have heavenly bodies while they minister in our space dimensions sometimes visibly and sometimes invisibly. I suppose that I still don’t understand your point.
I think Mike’s point is that whatever the ‘other-worldly’ nature of demoic ‘bodies’ might be, demons nevertheless aren’t happy unless they’re manipulating some ‘this-worldly’ body as their sphere of influence, which might suggest a more intimate ‘connection’ or ‘continuity’ between our material world and the spiritual (with its own unique embodiedness) world.
I’m not sure what it has to do with the fate of babies. ;o)
Tom
If demons are fallen angels (as I believe they are) I’m not sure they have bodies (which may be why they “aren’t happy unless they’re manipulating some ‘this-worldly’ body as their sphere of influence”), but I see no reason to believe that unfallen angels don’t have bodies.
(I suspect that demons are disembodied angels, but I thought James might prefer the term “unembodied.”)
As for babies, I’m not sure what this has to do with them.
I feel they’ll have to grow into adulthood, make chioces, and learn lessons, and I believe this world (or something like it in the future) is as necessary for them as it is for us.
Since they never really lived in this world, maybe they are reincarnated.
Maybe they’re resurrected to mortal life in a future judgement age.
Or maybe they have some intimate connection to our material world now (and are able to learn and grow from our experiences here, even feeling our joys and pains), or will have such a connection when everything is finally brought to light and put into perspective.
I just know that if there is a God, this world must be necessary, and they must fit in somehow.
Mike,
I think Jim’s view is that God is the only absolutely disembodied/unembodied mind there is. This accounts for God’s being omnipresent. All of created minds dispose of themselves via some LIMITED manner or sphere of influence. It’s easy enouch to describe ‘bodies’ in our own terms. It’s a bit harder to say what celestial bodies are like, but presummably all celestial beings (angels and the like) have their being in/via such bodies. And with this much I can agree with Jim.
I’m not sure why we should think celestial embodiment is of one kind (or not at all) for fallen angels and of another (or solely) for non-fallen angels. I rather thing that celestial embodiment is definitive of angelic being per se, just as embodiment is definitive of human being per se (fallen or redeemed).
Why demons are obsessed with embodying OUR bodies is hard to say. Maybe it’s their way of influence what happens in our world/life, and not because they are, like God, absolutely unembodied.
Tom
I would say demons are not fallen angels, according to Scripture. Scripture states that they are evil spirits whose origin is from the mind and the reason they are spirits is because they are thoughts which take on a life of their own. A demonically oppressed or possessed person, is actually being bound by living thoughts. Viral memes that take control and keep a person in bondage. These demons can control a person life, and be transmitted from person to any living thing and develop into psychosis where it literally can take on a personality as well.
Could you quote chapter and verse on that?
Genesis 6:5
The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.
Ezekiel 38:10
This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On that day thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil scheme.
Mark 7:20-22
He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
Colossians 1:21
Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
2 Corinthians 11:3
But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
Their origin comes from within the Heart/Mind of man, these are the spiritual forces of darkness that rule. That is why we are to put on the MIND OF CHRIST, and HAVE A NEW HEART, so that evil spirits cannot torment us any longer and prevent demons from manifesting themselves.
Those verses teach about evil originating in the hearts of humans, but that’s different than saying that evil spirits who can transfer from one person to another originate in the hearts of humans. You still showed no evidence that evil spirits in the New Testament originated in the hearts of humans.
Yes, you can pass thoughts to others. That doesn’t need NT to show this. 
Mark 7:20-22
He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
Anyways, spirits are what? They are influences which give life or death. They are ‘breathe’. And from breathe form words and from the those words we can either give life, or death.
James 3:6
The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by Gehenna.
You said the “scripture says they (evil spirits, not evil thoughts) originate from the mind of man,” I asked you if you could provide chapter and verse.
You haven’t.
You stated your opinion as the teaching of scripture, and it’s not.
Nothing that your saying and quoting indicates that the evil spirits and Satan in the Gospels originated in human hearts. You’re laughing out loud appears odd.
We all originally learned what demons were from someone’s belief and not the Scripture in the first place.
Colossians 3:15
Let the peace of Christ keep you in tune with each other, in step with each other. None of this going off and doing your own thing. And cultivate thankfulness. Let the Word of Christ—the Message—have the run of the house. Give it plenty of room in your lives. Instruct and direct one another using good common sense. And sing, sing your hearts out to God! Let every detail in your lives—words, actions, whatever—be done in the name of the Master, Jesus, thanking God the Father every step of the way.
God Bless.
Does this mean you’re unconcerned if your view of demons has anything to do with what Scripture teaches about demons?
What if it is not so much that growing to adulthood in this world is necessary for the child?
What if instead it is more necessary for the world that the child even enter into it in the first place - to play some part no matter how small, in the grand scheme of God’s design?
Afterall, what if this world is more like a school play, than a school test? Not everyone has lengthy lines, some only have a word; “Hark!” While others have some rather lengthy lines; “Alas, alas, oh my romeo how I talketh at thee and what not this and thus, for that and such! Yea and verily I do speak such a line as yonder lengthy script hath told.”
But both players are significant to the story. A story which continues on long after this current “scene” or “stage” is burned away, and rolled up like a scroll - replaced with the new, where all the actors now have their eternal parts.
Under this idea, it does not become so necessary for a child who dies in the womb to experience “mortalhood” - because his purpose in the story is different, he or she is a different sort of actor; not all can be the Romeo’s and Juliet’s or the Hamlets, and not all can be the stage crew, or the…odd trees with faces…or the Mary’s, and Joseph’s, and shepherds, and what not. (And much to my chagrin, not everyone can be a wiseman! How I adored playing that part in our Christmas plays as a kid)
But rather, Creation; both stage, and actor, become a more grand inheritance; that after the first acts are closed - and all sin and wrong are shaken out, and the climactic battle is won, and the story has at last seen the rise of its heros; Man, lead by the great hero Christ - then part II may begin, and the subsequent acts of the continuing story, Eternal Life for every actor, both little lines, and big - enemy and friend, may be told.
Could it be that Creation is not made for Man as a testing ground, but that both Man and Creation (as creations of God) are made for God’s inheritance, with which Man shares as his equal heirs in Christ; The Creator who entered Creation as one Created - the word made flesh, God incarnate?
It seems to me, that all of this is about the Creator harmonising to himself his Creation; and sanctifying it through Himself as he plays the part in it (as Christ) with the other actors, honouring everyone (whether their lines are little or large) with a purpose, or a place in working with the Creator, to bring that harmony into being through Himself as Christ - so that everyone, and everything in God might overcome everything that is not of God.
In this, it is my belief that a baby’s line though little, has some greater impact on the story of all Creation overcoming the things that are wrong.
I hope this comforts anyone who is worried that babies who have died early are somehow, at a disadvantage.
I like that very much, Lefein! I have been thinking along similar lines, but not to the point yet of being able to articulate it well.
I’d add that the lost baby often has tremendous impact on the ones who lost him/her.
I don’t think the experience of life in this world is intrinsically “necessary” for every human–except as it is the entry point into existence. (I don’t believe in preexistence of souls.) For some of us it is a part of our necessary experience of growing towards God, but for those who die too young, I’m certain that God has something else prepared for them.
I believe there’s much more to this world than merely determining “where” people are going to “spend eternity.” 
Sonia
Lefein, I really enjoyed how you put that, too! As I was reading it I felt so hopeful and encouraged. Amy
But how could that small part be necessary, in a world that’s unecessary?
If the baby doesn’t need this world to learn anything, how do those who suffer through the loss of the baby need that suffering?
If the baby doesn’t need to learn patience and faith, why do the grieving parents have to?
Why couldn’t we all just skip this messy world and go straight to the greater things that “eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man”?
But what is the purpose of the play?
Is it just for God’s own amusement, or is it for the betterment of the players?
If the former, the world is unecessary (and God wills a lot of unecessary pain.)
If the latter, the world is necessary (even to the baby), but then the baby would have to participate, and benefit from the whole story somehow.
Allegorically, perhaps you could say that he takes a seat in the audience and watches the rest of the play, but I think his actual participation would have to be a little more personal then that (if he were really to learn anything, and if this world really is necessary.)
Maybe such souls are reincarnated, or resurrected to mortal life, or somehow learn, grow, and develope through our life experiences here on stage (either now, or when this play is over, and the review begins.)
Any thoughts?
The purpose of everything in this particular phase of existence (this world) is the Creator making Creation perfect as He is perfect - that is; incorruptible, and immune to imperfection.
Since Creation is obviously not the Creator, it cannot have the Creator’s incorruptible perfection, and immunity without it being first instilled and developed in the Creation. This is because Creation is not existentially eternal, that is; not incorruptible and changeless in that incorruptible perfection by nature, but was only perfect once by means of being innocent, and not yet corrupted.
This is why this world is necessary, but it is also why it is not “necessary” for a person to basically “go through everything and live to adulthood” because that is not the purpose of the Created, whose purpose in this world is rather to play their parts in helping all of Creation be immunised; or as the Bible puts it “overcome”.
When Creation overcomes, then everyone who is a part of that Creation also overcomes.
This is how Christ was so significant in his role in the play. Because he is the Creator who came into Creation as one Created - the Word made flesh, God incarnate, etc, etc. And so he overcame, and now Creation through Him shall overcome every imperfection, and be therefore immune to it forever.
Every individual has a role, or a part in the play. A purpose. But not everyone’s purpose is to suffer through every kind of suffering - everyone has their unique walk with God in their existence; even the babies who die in the womb have a specific part, though short in this world, which is infinitely significant to the theme of the Whole in overcoming and becoming perfect as God is perfect - through Christ. Whether in this world or the next.
It is an “un-necessary” world in as far as it is not the ultimate purpose of a person to go through it. The ultimate purpose of a created being is to reflect the purposes that his Creator had for it. In the case of man; that is to be in perfect harmony with Him, and to be heirs with Him inheriting that Perfected/Immunised Creation that is as Perfect as He is Perfect.
The role of a person goes far beyond going through this world, or growing up to adulthood and “learning” just as the role of a child is far beyond going through highschool - and while highschool is “necessary” in one sense, it is not “necessary” in that it is “absolutely indespensible” (not everyone who is successful has a highschool diploma, but getting a highschool diploma isn’t something to just wave your hand at - if you get my meaning)
This world (or going through it all the way through adulthood rather) is necessary for those whom it is necessary for them to fulfill their role in the theme of helping the Whole Overcome. For those whom it is not necessary to go through it to adulthood - it simply is not necessary.
Not everyone’s purpose may involve more than a few seconds in this current fallen state (this present wicked age). Though their purpose no matter how short is still infinitely significant, as I’ve said above in my preface.
Perhaps it is because the baby doesn’t need to learn anything, because his purpose does not involve learning adulthood suffering, or maybe even learning at all - though everyone’s purpose is ultimately to be with God, and created heirs of Creation; maybe his purpose in helping Creation “overcome” is different from the purpose of someone who lives to be 120, or 70, or 50, or 15, or 4.
Perhaps the baby plays a role, that only a baby like him could play, in the grander theme that stretches beyond the sum of one infinitely precious individual, but to the theme of the Whole, and every infinitely precious individual, that he as a hero (even an unknown one) plays in rescuing.
In stories, you can’t have a happy ending if the big hero does not get help from the minor characters, who often prove to be the biggest heroes of them all. How would Curdie ever have gotten into Irene’s castle, if not for the un-named guards who shot him and imprisoned him? (Princess and the Goblin)
The guards may seem un-necessary…but they were for as Reality in the story settled it - very necessary. Though their parts were “little” compared to Irene’s or Curdie’s or especially the Grandmother’s. Or even better - the role of the Irene’s dead mother…who did not even enter the story as a character outside of name - she was very necessary; much like the roles of children who die before they even enter into the tale of life here on Earth - they too are very necessary.
Another metaphor; You can’t have Romeo and Juliet, without the stage crew who only appear for a few seconds when the curtain is down, and the stage is being set.
Perhaps because, in order for the grieving parents to play their part as grieving parents - they must learn how to grieve. Or to play their roles in helping Creation overcome Grief with Christ, they must first go through Grief - which the baby has played his role in helping Creation overcome by being the lost child.
The stage crew does not need to learn the lines of Romeo and Juliet, it is the people who play those specific parts who are the ones who have to learn them.
Not everyone has to learn “everything” that another may have to learn (if it is about “learning” at all - something I’d have to write elsewhere about), just as we do not have to do everything the prophets did in the Bible to fulfill our destiny. For example; I do not have to go out and marry a prostitute and name my children prophetic names of doom (as Hosea did) nor do I have to go out into the wilderness for 40 days and fast as even Jesus did. Everyone has their part to play, and every part is “different”, and some things (even sufferings, and learnings) we do not have to do if they are not ours to do them (not everyone dies a martyr’s death, or goes to prison). If we are not called to live more than a few seconds in this world - then our purpose is not to grow to adulthood in this world, but that purpose may very well be to initiate the furthering of the story, which is ultimately for the good of every being involved, all of Creation; and is therefore infinitely significant to God, and so is infinitely significant to what God has made; us.
It is speculation, and I do not dare to say that everything we experience is “just a silly old test” - far frome it. But what I do mean to say, is that as far as everything everyone goes through, or doesn’t go through; it is all about Creation becoming reconciled to its Creator - and being immune to imperfection, as it is made perfect. So that it can then be enjoyed by everyone to its ever fulfilling fullest.
Because Creation is finite, and its perfection if left alone would only be a perfection based on innocence; which can be corrupted, a corruption which was seemingly inevitable.
So it must overcome, and become immunised to the disease that was inevitable; Imperfection, when it was corrupted.
Creation could not be perfect based on innocence, it has to be perfect based on being immune to corruption and therefore incorruptible; Perfect as God is perfect - which is a perfection that comes only by being existentially, and infinitely perfect (infinite, God, I AM, always perfect and always has been and always will be) or by having it instilled into something that is existentially finite, as Creation is.
The only way to instill this type of perfection, a type of perfection that is where it is impossible to miss the target - is to remove in a real, and true way, every possible way that the target could be missed. This must be done by Creation overcoming imperfection by and through God who is perfect. If God just snapped his fingers and “did it”, then the perfection would be a lie, because Creation did not in true reality overcome imperfection, and so the Creator would have to lie in saying that it had done so…and God simply cannot, and will not lie…
The perfection must be true, or else it is no perfection at all.
Everyone must play their part. But their part does not necessitate “adulthood” - because their part in this world is not merely in overcoming for themselves, but their part is for the overcoming of the Whole of which they are included.
The purpose of a human being is not necessarily to “learn” how to suffer, or even to overcome suffering, I think.
I believe it is more that the purpose of the human being (as far as it has to do with overcoming anything) is to help in the Whole (which includes himself) in overcoming the very ability to suffer and the very thing that causes such suffering; Sin, imperfection, missing the mark. Not for himself merely, but for the Whole which includes himself.
All of this done, of course, through Christ. Who also plays and has played his role, as the central character. No one could fulfill their purpose, either the ultimate purpose, or their role in helping the Whole overcome - for we can do nothing apart from him.
We cannot skip this world, because we all have a purpose in “helping” to rescue it, to be stewards of it, and to inherit it when it, like us, is resurrected/remade and glorified, reconciled to its Creator through Christ who reconciled it for us, and will manifest that reconciliation for everyone, and everything.
It is all about the Creator making Creation Perfect, and that involves everyone playing their part so that the Whole may overcome, and become Perfect.
To make Creation (which includes everyone created) incorruptibly perfect, so that it can then fulfill its ultimate purpose; where God is All in All.
Certainly not the former, but not merely the latter.
Only if you hold the idea that every human being must live to a certain age in order to be useful (if I am following your idea that a baby must learn sufferings which only come through adulthood in order to fulfill his or her destiny).
And only if you measure the purpose of everything to one part of the overall theme; the perfection of Man, rather than the Whole of which Man is the heir, and is included as an integral part.
I would think that the baby still plays a significant part long after his physical existence in this fallen Earth is done. Afterall, this fallen earth is not our home - it is a temporary place to be resurrected into glory after it too dies. It is the glorified Creation which is our home, where our fullest destiny will be fulfilled and be fulfilling.
I wouldn’t think reincarnation - I personally believe that destroys the human identity and that it is a robbery of a human spirit’s unique personhood. Resurrection to mortalhood, more plausible; I can’t say either way. But I don’t believe it is a necessity for a person to grow to adulthood, or to spend a “certain amount of time” or to go through a “certain amount of things” in order to be useful to the plan of God in regards to this metaphorical play.
The players, have a part in the story of helping the world overcome. Even if their lines are little. Because when Creation overcomes imperfection - the players will too, even if they didn’t have a big line in the story, because they are a part of the Creation which shall as a whole, wholly overcome; in the Creator who came as one Created, and overcame.
In summary; People are “necessary” for this world, and it is “necessary” for us. But not to the extent, that a person must grow up to adulthood in order to fulfill that necessity that person has in God’s plan, where God had put the person in this world to begin with. Because ultimately, this world is not about the individual overcoming sin through Christ for his/herself - but about playing his/her part in helping the overcoming of the Whole of Creation, of which he or she is an infinitely significant part - so that Perfect Creation may be Perfectly enjoyed, by both Perfect Created, and Perfect Creator in Perfect, whole, immutible harmony.
“Everyone is Necessary.” Even the dead unborn.
Everyone, is made for such a time as this. What ever time “this” may be, or what ever “this” may involve.
Yes, and if that’s God’s purpose, and this world is necessary, and still-borns are part of this creation, that perfection and immunity would have to be instilled in them (with and through this world, play, story, or whatever else you’d like to call this creation.)
The question I’m interested in is how, and when?
And how, and when, does this world (those of us in it, and our suffering here) help the unborn?
So an unborn infant, who never lived in the flesh, and never experienced any physical pleasure or pain, learns that Christ came in the flesh, fasted for forty days, denied himself the pleasures of the flesh, and died on the cross.
What does any of that mean to a soul who has no idea what hunger is, no idea what pleasure is, and no idea of the pain that would be produced by having nails driven through the nerve endings in his hands and feet?
Where and when does this unborn soul get any conception of what this means, or any idea of what’s actually happening "“on stage” here?
That’s interesting, but what do you mean by manifesting the reconciliation for everyone and everything?
How, and when (particularly in the case of those who never lived outside the womb) is it manifested for everyone and everything?
But how does Creation (this world) reach, and touch, and include the unborn?
Unless the parents are very calloused, a still-born baby certainly continues to play a significant part in their lives, long after it’s physical existence in this fallen Earth is done.
The parents (as in the case of my sister) probably named the child, and had hopes and dreams for it.
But I’m more interested in what part this fallen world plays in the developement of the child.
How does the child not “skip it”?
How does this world, this story, this play (or whatever else you want to call it) help in prepairing the unborn child to fulfill it’s fullest destiney in resurrected glory?
I agree.
Because if we could just skip it, nothing here (dealing with grief and loss, making choices, exercising faith, learning from experience, making sacrifices–the patiance of Job, the faliure of Israel, the faith of the saints–not even Calvary) is really necessary.
My question is how does the unborn child not “skip this world,” and how (and when) does it benefit from what transpires here under the sun?
How (and when) does this world perfect or immunize an unborn child?
I realize that scripture (and Church tradition) may not spell out an answer clearly, but I’m looking for thoughtful suggestions (however speculative they might be.)
Thank you.