The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Suggestions on Revising TULIP for Reformed Universalism

I wondered how quickly it would be before someone started complaining that Calvinism was Orwellian instead. I fully expect someone will start bringing up the point of Johnny’s original post elsewhere (I expected it would be Johnny :wink: ), that Calvinists routinely engage in an evangelical outreach that uses forms of expression conceptually much more in line with Arminianism. And that when people figure this out, they can naturally feel like they’ve been bait-and-switched.

(I can’t say I didn’t add a bit to that myself, either: I often point out that important terms used by Arms and Calvs, but much moreso by Calvs, mean the opposite of what they literally say. And, I would argue, opposite of what the scriptures have to say on those topics, although I’m sure Calvs don’t intend for that to happen.)

Rather than threading off on that (in this thread anyway–we already have a recent thread for that), would it suffice to observe that universalists (typically converting from one of the other two soteriology branches) tend to feel like they were being authoritatively oppressed by Orwellian double-speak, and so are likely to be touchy about accusations that they’re engaging in it themselves?–especially when such an accusation is in regard to something clearly not intended by its promoters to be a hidden reversal of meaning but instead intended to be an explicit comparison of concepts as a shorthand way of describing differences and similarities between concepts? (i.e. something pretty much the opposite of Orwellian newspeak and doublethink?)

I used to say that the only thing I couldn’t agree with was limited atonement. Now I’m not sure that I can agree with total depravity. I think we were created to recognize Our Creator/Father/God. Peter Hiett said in Sunday’s message that the greatest lie every perpetrated against the church was that God’s judgment and love were two different things. He created us good and in His image. We still are good, only because He created us, and we are made in His image.

Maybe my use of Orwellian was not perfect to the letter, but my usage got the point across. It was in referrence to taking a longstanding, well-defined term and changing it. I believe everyone here who read my post understands the meaning and spirit of what I was getting at. Interestingly enough, how do you know that I’m not redifining “Orwellian” and if I am, why do you take such a quick defense to pull out a formal definition? :wink:

Thanks, byronarn :smiley: I agree with your agreement with me, the affects (effects?) of redifining TULIP and how it could relate to your own advancement of EU’s missionary efforts, and Dr. MacArthur’s definition of “T”.

No problem, 1Cor! I accept your apology, and I never took it personal at all. Even if I did, meh…
Politics, religion, family…etc, feathers will be ruffled. We’re all adults (presumably). I’ve told Johnny that he, nor anyone else needs to apologize to me, unless they feel compelled to. If I get attacked or something really heinous, then I might ask for one. But given the nature of what we’re discussing offenses are bound to come :wink:

WE WERE created good originally i.e. Adam and Eve. There sin plunged all of their posterity into sin. THEY were created in the image of God, we are born in the image of our parents-inherently sinful. “None is righteous, no, not one. No one understands; no one seeks for God…no one does good, not even one. The intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth.”
These coupla passages are used to support Total Depravity. You may dispute them, say Calvinists take them out of context, or refuse to paint the whole picture, that’s fine. But there are many more passages to go along with these.
I guess one objective that I have here is to help those who don’t know WHY Calvinists believe what we do. You may not agree with the Doctrines of Grace, but hopefully I can shed light on where we get our doctrines. That’s the main reason I’m here, to learn EU doctrine.

Jason, I was going to PM you, but then figured I should say what I have to say publicly so as not to appear cowardly. I believe I should leave the majority of your posts alone due to the chasm that exists between our intellects. Perhaps a comparable analogy would be that of a reasonably intelligent, well-read layman, convinced of the truth of EU, going to the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary website and having to discuss and/or contend with Dr. Mohler. I think your posts in general and PM’s to me have been gracious and sound. Based on your suggestion, I looked up Theopologetics and have podcasted some of his show-thank you for that. He also thought well of you. I’m still willing to discuss with you, but you will have to dumb it down a bit. This doesn’t mean that I don’t get a lot of what your saying or that there’s nothing profitable for me reading your posts, or that you don’t make good points, the posts are just kind of lengthy and overwhelming. You probably know more about Calvinism than I do-not Mohler, not Sproul, but me, yes. Anyway, I mean this very respectfully. I’ll still troll your posts. I know you have a lot going on, so accomodating doesn’t have to rate very high. Others who read this might take it as an “Aha!, he’s wrong but he won’t admit it!”, but that’s not the case. If you do have any questions for me, feel free to ask and if I don’t get them I’ll ask you stoop lower.
The one question that you asked on the other thread re children of wrath? Well, I think you know my answer. My understanding is that the term “reprobate” is moreso from the eternal perspective, but it gets used in the here and now. So, on the one hand only the LORD knows with certainty who’s who. From our limited perspective we don’t.

Hi Matt

Fair enough. I guess I’m unnecessarily touchy about folk roping George Orwell into their arguments. He was such a good writer, one I admire hugely, and such a stickler for the proper use of language, that as a writer myself (not, I hasten to add, a proper published one :frowning: ) I am very protective of him. But I guess he’s big enough to look after himself. :slight_smile:

Isn’t there an internet ‘law’ that the minute you mention the Nazis, in any context, pro or con, in any debate, you automatically forfeit the argument? I reckon the word Orwellian ought to be afforded the same treatment! :smiley:

Shalom

Johnny

PS You are right about Jason. He has a brain the size of a planet, and the learning to fill it. :slight_smile: I sometimes think, with Groucho Marx, that I have the brain of a four-year-old kid - and I bet he was glad to get rid of it! :smiley:

Johnny said:

:laughing: You’re right, Johnny. I’m glad I can retreat behind the “Well, I’m just an artistic type” excuse.

But about the tulip. I love tulips, but I want our OWN flower. We could have a daisy, or a chrysanthemum (if we want lots of letters), or a day lily. Maybe a rose; roses are good. Probably not a violet because we’re not shy or anything. A crocus would be lovely; first bright face of spring. :wink: I’m not a good enough theologian to come up with the words to go with the flowers. One thing though; beautiful and winning as they are, a daffodil is possibly not a good choice. (daffy, you know)

Love, Cindy

How about this?:

Total Depravity == “All have sinned and come short of God’s glory.”
Unconditional Election == We are not saved according to our efforts or merits.
Limitless Atonement ==“God is the Savior of all mankind, especially of those who believe.”
Irresistible Grace == If God wills that all men be saved, God will make a way for all men to receive that salvation.
Perseverance of the Saints == Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?

Perfect, Psalmist! So simple. But hey, what about my daisy? :wink:

Here’s a revision I once saw, but I’m not taking any responsibility for it:

[size=150]Totally depraved doctrine.
Uncertain salvation.
Luck of the draw.
Irresistible damnation.
Persecution of the saints. [/size]

Maybe this should be discussed on the other thread? (Seems more topically appropriate. I’ll repost your comment there.)

Most Christian Universalists believe in one or another variety of definition (accepted among Calvs and Arms) of Total Depravity, btw. Among Calvs the topic becomes naturally connected with the state of the non-elect compared to the state of the elect (whether at any given time or altogether), and there are variant beliefs on that connection, too.

I like Psalmist’s Kath revision of TULIP, btw. :smiley:

The revision Paidion found, not so much. I don’t think it’s fair to Calv doctrine at a couple of points, and is needlessly provocative. Accurate to how we ourselves feel sometimes, no doubt, but not a succinct way of describing what we believe. (And we wouldn’t want Calvs or Arms dissing us like that.)

As for DAISY… hm…

Dead in our sins,
All are atoned by Christ’s
Irresistible grace.
Sooner or later,
YHWH we’ll praise!

I love it! I actually like it better than TULIP. Plus, from what I can see, it describes biblical truth quite nicely. :smiley:

Plus we can ask which flower formulation better fits Christ’s own flower analogy: how much more does your Father in heaven care about you!

Sorry, I know that I am missing the point of this thread, but in my opinion, Jacobus Arminius did a great job at revising TULIP. :laughing:

TUIP?

(Is that the sound Spiderman’s web-shooters make?)

:slight_smile:

Excellent, Jason! Very creative with that troublesome “Y.” :slight_smile:

Hmmm…I’m up for the challenge! Let’s see…

Do
Aall
Inherit
Salvation?
Yesssssssss!!!

:laughing: I love it!! Both of youse! (Jason and Psalmist) And speaking of “youse,” isn’t a daisy a far more apt picture of the body of Christ than the beautiful but singular tulip? As a composite flower, the daisy is the many who are made one in Him. That would be US! Thank you for my daisies. I shall treasure them always. :slight_smile:

Love in Him, Cindy