The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Summary of answers to why we don't see large scale miracles today


#1

I have summarised my conclusion from the answers people gave here:

I’m interested to hear reasons why we don’t see today large scale spectacular miracles (parting of Red Sea, rain stopping for years resulting from human prayer, God in pillar of fire not individual miracles like healings).


#2

I doubt that people saw a lot of “large scale spectacular miracles” in any age. It’s just that the writers of the Bibie recorded the few that did occur so often that it seemed as if they were happening all the time.


#3

That’s a good point, but nevertheless they appear to have ceased altogether for the last 2000 years.


#4

Well, there are some TV evangelists today…who claim they still have large scale, spectacular miracles today. Like this one, for example!

P.S. If we can get our hands, on that miracle spring water…and get a supply of water pistols…we could hold off the zombies…from the tribulation and Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5).


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#5

As to true miracles from God, they seem to come in an environment of faith, not works.

Galatian 3:5
Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith [?]

We read about the miraculous “faith in action” of Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, et al in the “Hall of Faith” chapter 11 of Hebrews.

Romans 4:13
For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.

Apparently our intellectualism and legalism limit God in this regard. Certainly evangelism today seems to put the focus on what sinners need to do (in order to buy their fire insurance coverage against hell, and to be good Christians who “maintain their salvation”), instead of focusing on JESUS, everything he did, and what he has already freely provided for us.

There is only one true gospel—the gospel of grace (Acts 20:24), a neglected gospel which alone God will confirm with signs following.

Hebrews 2:4
And God confirmed the [true] message by giving signs and wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit whenever he chose.

God will not confirm a different, false gospel:

Galatians 1:6-7
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all .

Furthermore, I have argued that those miracles which hurt people are in actuality not from God, but from Satan. This would include Bible stories of flooding, fires, plagues, killing, et cetera.

Again, not all miracles are from God. We remember the powerful sorcerers of Egypt, and Simon the Sorcerer in Samaria. Further, we are warned that the generation before the Second Coming will be characterized by false, satanic miracles, e.g.,

The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2 Thes. 2:9-10.

As to materialistic skeptics (including some in the Church) who doubt there is a Satan, a spirit realm, or miracles: in the last days they will probably attribute the lying wonders to psychic, “latent power” which is supposedly resident in each of us. —And unless they repent, they will fall into the Human Potential (New Age) movement, follow the Antichrist, and choose to get on board to evolve their own “potential,” because the coming phenomena will be amazing and undeniable.


#6

There is not much point in God performing “large-scale spectacular” miracles any longer. Luke 16:31: But he said to him, “If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.” The resurrection of a crucified man, finally killed by a spear through his body, embalmed and buried in a sealed tomb was a miraculous event, yet only few people believed it, then and now. Why would they be more likely to believe 2,000 years later?

But God still performs miracles. They may not be as spectacular as the Red Sea crossing but they occur. People will still reject claims that God has any involvement in saving people’s lives through skilled surgeons, or that He played any part in what has been called “the miracle of Dunkirk”. Every new life, human, animal or vegetable is a spectacular miracle if we only have eyes to recognise it.


#7

Our weekly Monday prayer group report:
(1) December: 2 people scheduled for surgery on malignant brain tumors were instantly healed in response to prayer. One, an elderly lady needed as her husband’s caregiver, is thankfully able to resume her caregiving role. The other, Shane (a young skeptic), converted to Christianity as a result of his miracle. He then posted before and after pictures of his huge malignant brain tumor on Facebook.

(2) Yesterday’s Prayer Meeting: Rich who knows Shane well, reports that Shane will shortly be a new father and invited him to our prayer group. Rich also reported the conversion of an acquaintance as a result of his witnessing the healing of a 12-year-old blind girl in response to prayer.

(3) My lunch today at a local restaurant: Ran into a former parishioner Dick and shared these testimonies with him. Dick had his own miracle. He was vacationing in Greece and Turkey, despite torn cartilage in his knee, which made it hard to walk. He should have canceled his trip, but didn’t. Instead, he was scheduled for surgery immediately after his return.

But then Dick made the fateful trek up the large hill to “the House of Virgin Mary at Ephesus.” A Turkish woman noticed him limping and urged him to pour water from a nearby tap on the hill from a healing stream vy Mary’s house. Dick bottled some of this water just to be polite. When he returned to his Turkish hotel, he was in great pain. His wife Mary Ann urged him to pour the water onto his knee, but Dick objected, 'Why? It’s just eater?" His wife replied, “What do you have to lose? Just try it.” So he did–and felt better, though he attributed this to a placebo effect, until…

He returned to Spokane and was immediately scheduled for knee surgery. When he recovered from the anesthetic, his surgeon was standing at the head of his hospital bed. The surgeon (fearing a malpractice lawsuit?) somberly announced, “I don’t understand it; we had MRIs showing the tears in your knee tendons. But when we cut you open, your knee was healed, perfectly normal. I just can’t explain it!” So Dick testified to his healing miracle in church. Our prayer group is awash in miracles like this.

My point? If ypu’re not willing to spend the time in a weekly intercessory prayer group that studies Jesus’ prayer principles, don’t complain that you don’t see miracles today. I’m not offering these testimonies as proof; I’m offering them as encouragement to join or form a weekly prayer group and just watch how dramatically God often answers prayer for healing. But patience is needed; it took a few months before we started to see dramatic answers to our prayers.


#8

Yes Sir and they occur every day


#9

I was referring to large scale miracles like parting the Red Sea or appearing in a pillar of fire, not individual miracles like healing.


#10

My life has been a journey, of following this scriptural passage LITERALLY!

Matthew 7:7

New International Version
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

New Living Translation
"Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you.

It has worked for me, for the most part!


#11

I added my conclusions based on answers people gave


#12

Something is missing, mcarans,

Galatians 3:5-6 SO AGAIN I ASK YOU, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? So also "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

I am not seeing anything from my suggested reasoning in your “Summary of answers to why we don’t see large scale miracles today.”

Instead, I only see the following ideas about large scale miracles:

  • those recorded in the Bible are very rare
  • they may be myths, or altered and enhanced hyperbole
  • they have stopped because we now have in Christ the perfect revelation of God.

Are you actually satisfied with these explanations for why we don’t see miracles today? I’m sure not.

As to the parting of the Red Sea, we see that, in this instance, Moses heard God correctly, and obeyed:

Exodus 4:2 Then the LORD said to him, “What is that in your hand?” “A staff,” he replied.

As to rain stopping as a result of human prayer, I believe Elijah was, like all of us, imperfect, and sometimes misguided. As you know, and failed to mention, I have argued that whenever people misattribute evil to God—be they prophets or otherwise—they are conflating God with Satan.

1 Kings 17:1 Now Elijah the Tishbite, from Tishbe in Gilead, said to Ahab, "As the LORD, the God of Israel, lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word."

So whereas the legalist Satan may come in through the open door of sin and afflict with drought and famine, God warns, and offers salvation to those who hear Him and believe Him. Elijah finally prayed in faith for rain. Too bad it was not sooner instead of later.

Jesus came down to the Israelite camp in a pillar of fire. But now he is in our hearts. Do you honestly think most people today, including many overly intellectual Christians, would even recognize the truth of “large scale” divine miracles if they saw them? Consider,

John 12:28-29a Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.” The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered ….

So, was it God’s voice, or just thunder? The skeptical, the rationalistic, the legalistic, those with a scientific materialist paradigm, are going to filter out miracles, in any age; or, they will propose some alternative explanation, be it Darwinian evolution and human potential, or space aliens, or Photoshop! Please, anything but God, or Satan!

And as far a perceived need to distinguish between “large-scale” and “small-scale” miracles, which is more amazing, Moses parting the Red Sea, or Peter walking on water?

Finally, does God love people, and want to help them? Or has He changed? If not, is anyone out there asking Him, for example, to send manna from heaven, and water from rocks to the Muslims dying in Yemen? Or is it that He just doesn’t do that sort of thing anymore, because ‘we have the completed Bible now, so why bother Him?’

If we believe God is an unchanging Savior, we should remember that Jesus gave the twelve disciples authority (including Judas Iscariot), and told them to be miraculously proactive: “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.”

Let’s not be comfortable with rank unbelief. First we need to take time listen to God, to believe Him, and to receive His divine supply. Then we will have something heavenly to give our neighbor.

John 11:40
Then Jesus said, “ Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”

Mark 10:15
“Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”


#13

I think if God came in a pillar of fire today, all the people that witnessed it would believe and even many watching live news broadcasts of it would believe too. For example people believe Neil Armstrong walked on the moon without having personally witnessed it and only a minority of cranks don’t believe it.


#14

(1) The Hebrew translated “Red Sea” actually means “Sea of Reeds” and can thus refer to the reedy lakes adjacent to Goshen, the land from which th ancient Israelites escaped from slavery. I read an interesting article by a late 19th century British engineer who witnesses the parting of one of these 6 ft. deep lakes through a combination of wind and tide. A path opened through this “ssa of reeds” on which fishing boats floated the day before. A similar event may lurk behind the Exodus story and the miracle would then be that this exceedingly rare event happened at the precise moment it was needed for the Israelite escape in to the Sinai.

(2) There is an Arabic delicacy called “mann” which tastes like honey and can be gathered in the Sinai desert. It results from insect excrement, but is nevertheless nutritious and tasty and is the likely identity of the Israelites “manna.”

(3) An ancient sea sunk beneath the Sinai desert millions of years ago and some of the water got trrapped in the desert rocks. Engineers have struck these rocks and witnessed a Mosaic type stram gushing from them. This pheneomenon is the likly origin of Peteteuch stories of “water from a rock.”

For examples of modern parallels to biblical nature miraces, watch the documentary “Le the Sea Resound” on the recent Fiji Islands revival:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Let+the+sea+resound+fiji+youtube&docid=608052829453553049&mid=4D8790625179BD66D06B4D8790625179BD66D06B&view=detail&FORM=VIRE


#15

I prefer the evidence for this route:

The Gulf of Aqaba is thousands of feet deep, except at the crossing point of Nuweiba Beach, where there is a flat underwater ridge going all the way across to Saudi Arabia. I think this is the actual crossing point of the Exodus, as suggested in this fascinating research documentary:

Plus, that trajectory points directly to Jabal al Lawz, the more probable location of Mount Sinai, in Saudi Arabia:


#16

Yes… and let’s not be comfortable with rank rhetorical hypocrisy…

An honest answer Hermano… how long have YOU been praying accordingly as above on behalf of the Muslims dying in Yemen? And does your practical satanology reflect regular FASTING, as per… Mt 6:17 and Mt 17:21?


#17

Maybe this old joke will shed some light! :smile:

A storm descends on a small town, and the downpour soon turns into a flood. As the waters rise, the local preacher kneels in prayer on the church porch, surrounded by water. By and by, one of the townsfolk comes up the street in a canoe.

“Better get in, Preacher. The waters are rising fast.”

“No,” says the preacher. “I have faith in the Lord. He will save me.”

Still the waters rise. Now the preacher is up on the balcony, wringing his hands in supplication when another guy zips up in a motorboat.

“Come on, Preacher. We need to get you out of here. The levee’s gonna break any minute.”

Once again, the preacher is unmoved. “I shall remain. The Lord will see me through.”

After a while, the levee breaks, and the flood rushes over the church until only the steeple remains above water. The preacher is up there, clinging to the cross when a helicopter descends out of the clouds, and a state trooper calls down to him through a megaphone.

“Grab the ladder, Preacher. This is your last chance.”

Once again, the preacher insists the Lord will deliver him.

And, predictably, he drowns.

A pious man, the preacher goes to heaven. After a while, he gets an interview with God, and he asks the Almighty, “Lord, I had unwavering faith in you. Why didn’t you deliver me from that flood?”

God shakes his head. “What did you want from me? I sent you two boats and a helicopter.”


#18

Re Berserk’s rationalization of three miracles:

Berserk, how do you rationalize the resurrection of Christ? Was it superstition that God had raised Him from the dead? Did those who claimed to see the risen Christ actually see His identical twin, thinking it was Jesus?


#19

Davo, an honest question certainly deserves an honest answer.


#20

Great… my question to your own scenario can’t be difficult — so what’s your answer :question: