A biblical example of post-mortem salvation - Jonah.
Jonah rebelled against God, fleeing His presence, drowned, died, and in Sheol (the grave, realm of the dead, “Hell”) feeling cut off from God, in torment, repented, turned his face to God, prayed, and God heard his cry, saved him, and even brought him back to physical life and set him back in the ministry where he continued to repent, grow, learn.
The wrath of God that lasts but a moment, but His love endures forever!
I have appreciated Sherman’s posts as well, but I hear roofus.
…based on my personal experience with a church going, seminary trained, christian professor, evangelical christian husband who was a porn using sex addict (strip clubs, and a couple seasons of adultery- one of them while we were church supported missionaries). The way I handled it where he kept on dabbling in it looks a lot like “mercy and acceptance” (I call it enabling and dumb. It was “hell on earth” for me and the children). The way I handled it where he finally stopped sure does not LOOK like mercy and acceptance. “Get out of the house. I’ll give you 40 days to cease and desist all of your addictions, or I’m filing these divorce papers I have all filled out”.
God never FORCES anyone to stay around. And if they stay around, seems to me as though the dross must GO.
Nevertheless, Sherman, keep us posted on your methodist experience. One of our old friends is a methodist minister. They are encouraged NOT to get attached to their church; to avoid attachment, they move them around every 2-3 years, so the atmosphere of the church may change depending who is the pastor.
Thanks Gem for sharing. And I completely agree that love has a tough side. We must hold eachother accountable to righteousness. Tough-love is needed many times in relationships. And God uses tough love with us, in this life and the one to come. Judgment I see as tough love and fully expect the fire of truth to burn the hell out of us! The difference between UR and ECT is seen in that UR affirms judgment and punishment of sin, but such flows from the love and acceptance of God and has a positive purpose; it’s tough-love. ECT affirms that judgment and punishment of sin flows inspite of the love of God, and ultimately only has a negative purpose, vengeance and even the continuation of bondage to evil from within and without. People are locked into their sin instead of delivered from it. In ECT, the kingdom of Satan knows no end; he forever torments the tormented and perverts what was created to be good.
The more I look into the Methodist denomination, the more I think it might be an ok place for my family and I to rest for awhile, but I doubt that I’d fit in it as a minister because of the denomination moving ministers around so much. That’s one thing I don’t see as being healthy, as a rule. I don’t know though for I’ve never experienced that. Ultimately I think I’ll need to start a fellowship, but until I have unity in my family I feel that I cannot do so. I pray and trust the Lord for His will to be done in due season, and would appreciate your prayers too as I do my best to discern the will of the Lord.
I appreciate your practical insight here, Gem. It reminds me a lot of McLaren’s discussion in The Secret Message of Jesus of inclusivism vs. exclusivism. Everyone is included, but they have to make the choice to participate in the kingdom; they cannot be part of it until they do. The dross must indeed go; the robes have to be washed clean, or there is no entry! But once they are, they may partake of the life there freely and without cost.
When you said: “He accepts them and then leads them to perfection, which involves them renouncing their sins”, what is the “which” that you are referring to? Is it:
United Methodist ministers are given a lot of theological leeway. Basically if you keep “Jesus” in the equation somewhere then you’re officially okay. So - UMCs can range from fundie type dogma all the way to very liberal beliefs - including UR.
This last Sunday, my family and I visited an interdenominational church in Hendersonville TN, about 30 minutes from where I live, and I’m very suprised to find that they describe themselves as interdenominational and inclusive. I haven’t met with the pastor yet, but I think they are open to UR. We’ll see. It’s a large church, probably 1000 people or so, and they seem to have a lot going for them. I hope to find a fellowship where my wife (an infernalist) and I (a universalist) can worship together.
Sorry I never got around to answering that.
I meant the “leads them” by the “which”. So to rephrase, “He accepts them and then leads them to perfection, a leading which involves them renouncing their sins.”
Sinners don’t have to renounce their sins before God accepts us enough to act to save us from our sins, but neither are sinners expected to first become perfect and then renounce our sins.
I’ve been thinking of checking out a United Methodist church in my area too. They seem to be pretty open-minded and non-judgmental. I’ll try to check it out sometime after Thanksgiving. I’ll let you all know how it goes when I do. 
Matt
I know we’ve covered this ground before but AISI there is no punishment beyond the emptiness of the sin state itself. The “wrath of God” was and is a metaphor describing life outside of the knowledge of paradise (ie: all mankind was driven out of the garden because the first couple disobeyed).
In real life we see that the same tragedies befall both the good and the evil. The only difference is that Christians (generally) call one “the wrath of God” and the other “tests”. Tribulation and anguish comes upon the soul which is missing the mark and it comes from the fact that the mark is being missed. In this state humans behave crazily because they are clueless to God’s full and unconditional love. To picture God smacking around sinners in anger because they have the sin dis-ease is a ridiculous and unreal image. Seeing the Father as He is is the only thing which cures one from the sin-state mindset.
FWIW - becoming a “believer” in the Christian sense doesn’t necessarily free the mind or spirit or body from anguish/torment. Until repentance is granted no one repents. Even people who desperately WANT to have a change of heart many times cannot. Yet - an open knowledge of God’s goodness and perfection cures everything, every anxiety. So any “wrath” or anguish I am experiencing stems from a lack of knowing the truth - that God is holding NOTHING against me or anyone else. It is our adventure and journey to return from our exiled state (a state which includes our vain imaginations about an angry/wrathful God) by realizing the truth of what is happening here and why, and it’s NOT because God is angry at impenitent sinners. I know some will say “but the scripture says” but it is mystery layered upon mystery. These things are purposely hidden, and it is our honor to search them out.
That the modern Methodists are leaning toward a more liberal theological mindset is a very positive thing AISI. Of course - fundies hate change and many will stick to their literalist guns to the very end. But I don’t dislike blind people for not seeing, I just feel sorry for them.
I’m with you there, brother. Amen
Hey Sherman, I heard somewhere that you were writing a book about UR. How’s that coming along?
Matt
Hi Matt,
Yep, I’m writing a book to my adult boys explaining to them why I’ve come to believe in UR. I’m thinking the title might be, “No Hell? Hell Yes!” or maybe “No More Hell? Heaven’s Yes!” It’s coming along very well. I’m working on a couple of chapters on Revelation’s lake of fire right now. I’m coming at it from a biblicist perspective, primarily reinterpreting the passages that are interpreted by infernalists to affirm ECT. The most powerful chapter might be the one on Hinnom Valley (Gehenna), though the chapter on the lake of fire is turning out to be compelling also, I think. Throughout the book I plan to salt it with reviews of passages that affirm UR. I will also have a chapter or two on the philosophical arguments for UR and against ECT, plus a couple of chapters dealing with the common arguments against UR. I don’t know when I’ll be done, though I think I’m about 1/2 or even 2/3 through, maybe another 6 months or so. Like I said, I’m writing it to my sons, 22 & 19, young men who love God and enjoy studying scripture, but who do not have any accademic theological training, though my 19 year old is currently in a school of discipleship where they do have some classes on theology.
Anyhow, thanks for asking. Your interest is encouraging.
We have a Methodist church here where I live and I sent them an email last week letting them know what my wife and my beliefs are and if we still could join fellowship with them without getting persecuted. We still haven’t heard from them yet.
Though it looks as though we will not be joining the local UMC because it doesn’t seem to fit the needs of my family, I did meet with the pastor and he reviewed the statements of faith of the church with me concluding he saw no reason why I could not be a member and even move into being a minister with them, which he was glad to help facilitate. And in checking out the other UMCs in my area, I’m finding that many have contemporary services, even charismatic to some degree. So as a denomination, they do seem to be growing and open to UR. I trust you’ll enjoy your visit.
Sherman: That sounds pretty cool, man. Do you know how long it’s gonna be yet? Or who will be the publisher?
And your welcome I think you should include this quote somewhere in your book:
It’s well said and certainly fits.
Let me know whenever you get it published.
And thanks for the encouragement about the UMC. I’m looking forward to checking out the one in my area.
Blessings to you brother
Matt
HI Sherman and All -
Just to say that I know of a book by a Methodist Bishop in the USA who is also a hopeful universalist. I love the book - full of warm pastoral insight it has a wonderful sense of humour and self irony. It book lacks all pretension and academic dryness. It is -
‘Who Will Be Saved’ by William H. Willmon, published by Abingdon Press (and should be a universalist classic).
I note that John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, was no universalist. However he had been inspired by the Moravian Brethren - many of whom were universlaists. Also, as a fastidious and tormented young man he turned to an older man, WIliam Law - the Anglican mystic - for spiritual freindshsip. By all accounts the old boy was very kindly with Wesley, encouraging him to relax into his sense of vocation. Eventually Wesley broke with Law and denounced him as being unsound on ‘Justification by Faith’. Law went on to become a universalist (especially in his’ Spirit of Love’) - and was a major influence on 18th century Quaker spirituality before the influence ofWesley carried the way with ‘Evangelical Friends’. Wesley, when he was older and mellowed, may not ahve believed in the greater hope but certinaly had wide hope- and he did think that God’s mercy was certinaly wide enough to include his old teacher William Law.
All the best
Dick
Yep, that’s a pretty good quote. It sounds familiar. 
I haven’t submitted my book to any publishers yet, and am debating on whether or not to do so or just publish it myself. Anyhow, thanks again for your encouragement.
“It is our adventure and journey to return from our exiled state (a state which includes our vain imaginations about an angry/wrathful God) by realizing the truth of what is happening here and why, and it’s NOT because God is angry at impenitent sinners. I know some will say “but the scripture says” but it is mystery layered upon mystery. These things are purposely hidden, and it is our honor to search them out.”
So what is the mystery behind God killing people? Do you read the books of Luke, Acts as metaphor? (I’m asking you a serious question.)