The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Tentative answer to the problem of evil

Paidion, I think these are good questions, with adequate answers: “Couldn’t the almighty God bring about this “higher good” in some other way? After all, He is omnipotent. And why does He never reveal what this “higher good” is?”

To the first question: “Couldn’t the almighty God bring about this “higher good” in some other way?” Plenty of people argue that God can’t do something that is logically contradictory, because it contradicts God’s nature. It would be logically contradictory to overcome evil without evil existing. I don’t quite buy this: I think that any God worth the capital “G” would also be the author of the rules of logic. Even granting that, you can address even this higher standard for God by suggesting that logical coherence, or comprehensibility, are themselves a greater good that is also being served. In this sense, logical coherence might even be said to have priority over “overcoming.” My favorite thing about your two questions is that your second question implies that you acknowledge comprehensibility, and so logical coherence, to be higher goods: for God to reveal a higher good to us, arguably, requires this higher good of comprehensibility and logical coherence. At any rate, one of the great strengths of a theodicy of overcoming is that it is so logically tight. Freedom can be served without much evil, or any. Soul formation can to; actually, the experience of trauma generally seems to have negative effects on peoples’ character. But the good of overcoming evil logically entails the existence of evil quite directly. You have to do some very fancy footwork to squeeze between those cracks.

" And why does He never reveal what this “higher good” is?"

I would suggest that this is precisely what is revealed through the cross and resurrection. The victory of God over abuse, cruelty, torture, oppression, moral blindness, gross irresponsibility, pain…evil, broadly construed. The Christian argument rests rather firmly on the claim that God has revealed this higher good.

While I think your questions have adequate theological answers, I don’t want to silence your anguished cry and your outrage against evil. I’m not sure that a theodicy is more appropriate than a simple anguished cry, in general; still, there is room in this world for both. A theodicy is an answer to a philosophical question that genuinely troubles a lot of people, and I firmly believe that an honest question deserves an honest answer. Of course, any decent theodicy should not leave us feeling smugly satisfied that we have “solved” evil. I think this is another strength of a theodicy of overcoming: it is highly compatible with a theology that invites us into active resistance to evil. It provides us with confidence, assurance and an abiding challenge. We are called to take part in God’s overcoming of evil, through loving self-giving. That’s what it is all about. In this sense, I think the theodicy avoids two of the other great pitfalls of many theodicies: it is not an invitation to complacency (as “freedom” so often is), and it does not justify or encourage complicity with evil. Evil exists so it can be defeated. I think that is a pretty great thing to say.

I think the time had come for me to relate my limited answer to the age-old, widely-discussed Problem of Evil.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
(Gen 1:27 ESV)

In what way was man created in the image of God? It cannot be in physical form, since God is spirit. (John 4:24). Is it because we have minds similar to that of God? (We’re getting closer). I think perhaps the main way in which we have been created in the image of God is our free will. God has libertarian free will, and He has blessed man with libertarian free will.

God is not interested in a race of robots or puppets which will obey Him when He pulls the strings. Rather He wants people to CHOOSE to obey Him and thereby live the fullest, most joyful lives possible—even under persecution. So what does God do when man chooses otherwise? What does God do when man chooses to commit horrible atocities? Usually nothing. It’s NOT that God is “allowing” these atrocities in order to bring about a greater good. God doesn’t sit down and calculate, “Jim Schlim is a good man, but I think I’ll allow that wicked man next door to rape and kill Martha, Jim’s 8-year old daughter, in order to bring about this wonderful plan I have in store for Jim. But I’m not going to tell Jim what his plan is. He’ll have to figure it out for himself.” I’m sure Jim would much sooner have God keep his daughter safe, than to participate in some plan of which he knows nothing. So why, you ask, do I think God does nothing to protect Jim’s daughter? FREE WILL! God has granted free will to man, and seldom interferes with that free will. God’s ultimate Plan of the Ages is that ALL people will freely submit to His authority, and consequently live in joy and harmony throughout eternity. If God interferes with free will to any large extent, that cannot happen. Man will simply become a race of puppets manipulated by the creator.

But then, there is much other sufferng which takes place which were not caused by evil people—the so-called “acts of God”, better described as “natural disasters”. There are earthquakes, floods, sunamis, cyclones, hurricanes, etc. which destroy or maim millions of people each year. As a result of drinking polluted water, little children suffer from internal parasites. The are grizzly bears and other animals which kill people. Some people have died as a result of being stung by the so-called “killer bees.” There are disease germs and viruses which attack people causing great agony and death. There are wood ticks, deer flies, bull dogs, and mosquitoes which suck human blood and irritate people. Why does God allow all of these things? I say that when Adam and Eve first “fell” by sinning, all of nature fell with them. Hence these “natural” enemies of mankind developed. God does not normally change the course of nature. If He specially protected His children from all of these natural disasters, there would be no consistency in life. For example, suppose whenever a Christian stumbled so as to fall off a cliff, God made him gently float down to the ground like a dandelion seed with its “parachute”. You would be unable to trust the law of gravity! Sometimes a thing would fall, and other times would slowly float down. No consistency!

God has created an orderly universe. On each day of creation, He saw that what He created was “good”. The creation itself became corrupted by man’s sin, and the whole suffering creation is groaning (Rom 8:22). But also:

…the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.(Rom 8:19-21)

Praise God! Some day, He is going to restore all things as they were mean to be (Acts 3:21). No more natural disasters. All people freely choosing the right and refusing to do evil.

I know this is far from a full answer to the Problem of Evil. But I think it begins to scratch the surface.

Paidion, I think that is a good and humble summary of this standard and ancient response to the problem of evil. The answer is suitably humble, because I don’t think it is a very good answer. It is, nonetheless, popular across the church in part because Augustine has been such an enduring influence. Still, I don’t think it is satisfying at all, on its own. And I think we can do better.

If you really wanted to be Augustinian about it, I think you could supplement it with “evil is the absence of good, like dark is the absence of light.” Putting them together, you can say things like, “Freedom, as a higher good, is itself a form of light, and it must be spread through the exercise of true freedom, like that which is found in Christian love.” That could be a fun project, but I still don’t think it gets you to an argument as simple and compelling as a theodicy of “overcoming.”

I also think that Augustine’s story of original sin has some major problems. As a theodicy, I think it just makes things worse. Ok, so God permits (and maybe permits at a remove, as you suggest…I don’t think it matters much to the argument) Adam to make a decision that screws up the entire cosmos. It causes earthquakes and carnivory and everything else that sucks. And God basically set him up for this: he put him right in the middle of this highly hazardous situation, and let a snake into the garden to entice him. I think that beings are morally culpable for the situations they construct. Governments are culpable for how they manage their currencies and markets, even if they aren’t micro-managing each decision. Prison builders and legal systems are culpable for the behaviors their prisons encourage. To try to acquit God on this basis is, I think, deeply morally problematic; even impotent system builders like us should be held accountable for the systems and situations we set up. How much more accountable should an omnipotent system builder be?

Aside from these moral problems, I don’t think this account of the fall gets the thrust of the story quite right. While it isn’t immediately germane to the topic, I’ll just note that Augustine’s influence on the Eastern churches was far less, and the way they understand and tell the story of original sin is different as a result. Overall, I think they are closer to the mark: original sin is about the capacity of death, and things like the fear of death, to rule us. It isn’t that it caused earthquakes, but that it gave/gives earthquakes (and kings and rulers) the appearance of ultimate power over us, through their power over death. But the doctrine of original sin is another conversation; it is worth noting, because I think theodicies are also worth discussing because they structure our other theology in important ways. My rejection of “freedom” as my primary theodicy relates directly to my rejection of Augustine’s construction of “original sin” as my primary reading of Genesis; I’m all for the doctrine of original sin, I just think Augustine got it rather wrong.

On your points regarding permission: While Genesis doesn’t tell us that God explicitly and directly permitted Satan into the garden, on the pattern of Job, we don’t have much ground for objecting to the principle that God would do that. In Job, the permission is highly explicit and direct. So while the notion that God doesn’t explicitly permit everything is helpful in some ways … for example, it helps discourage you from begging God to find you a parking space … I don’t think it accords with the Biblical material on evil, in particular, very well. And, if you want to defend the classical conception of God (w/the three omnis), I don’t think this lets God off the hook, anyway. I think system builders are responsible for what happens in their systems. That means God is responsible for what happens in creation, and is responsible for the effects of free will. I think the force of the free will argument derives precisely from the fact that it is an example of a higher good that is only possible if some evil is permitted. However, I think Chrisguy summarized some compelling objections to this. I would state those objections this way: if the main point is freedom, how is it freedom-enhancing to allow one person’s decision to restrict the freedom of so many other people so thoroughly? Or: why should someone have the freedom to imprison, torture, and otherwise so thoroughly restrict the freedom of others? How does crushing a child in a collapsed building enhance that child’s freedom?

Then you have the psychological and neurological arguments against freedom: we aren’t radically free after all. If there is such a thing as free will, it seems it is exercised marginally and often in the gaps. It isn’t remotely clear why so very much evil is required to achieve so very little freedom. And this is supplemented by plenty of Biblical material about God limiting peoples’ freedom; stopping up their ears, blinding them, obscuring the truth. So if part of the goal of a theodicy is to reflect and sum up the Biblical material well, freedom is also a pretty crummy answer.

For all of this, I think there is something to freedom. It does have a bit of explanatory power. I think it is a higher good, and it is a perfectly useful example of a higher good; I think Plantinga made appropriate use of it in his response to the logical problem of evil, for example. But I don’t think it is terribly satisfying, or the best response available. I think it is morally problematic, involves a large number of trecherous steps and so amounts to a weak response to the logical problem of evil, doesn’t make good sense of much Biblical material, and easily leads to a practice of complacency. What’s more, I think it leads to a rather warped conception of “freedom.” I think that our understanding of freedom itself suffers when it is pressed into service as the primary theodicy, and the end result is that using freedom as a theodicy tends to make us less free. But that, too, is a conversation for another day :slight_smile:

More generally, I think the broad discomfort with theodicy is largely a result of the fact that “theodicy” generally points people to this particular, crummy, theodicy. The crumminess of this highly popular theodicy has given theodicy itself a bad name. But to discredit the enterprise of providing theodicies based on the crumminess of this theodicy is like discrediting the enterprise of eating, on the basis of the crumminess of a rotten apple. Or, to cluster metaphors, since Augustine, the church has been pounding on this nail with a screwdriver. No wonder they think that this nail damages your tools, and doesn’t go in all the way! Not bad advice, if you don’t have a hammer.

Unfortunately I haven’t been able to respond to this topic, since my computer is still in the shop (though I have a moment now with a friend’s). I have been able to read these posts, however.

Dan - if you are more interested in my thoughts on the problem of evil, you can read what I’ve said in the other thread a few below this one with the word “Evolution” in the title. I’ve been at times convoluted in my response, particularly regarding the topic of free will - going back and forth with whether I believe it exists - but the main thrust of my response to the problem of pain is a theodicy of “overcoming.”

I now believe that free will does indeed exist, but its function as a good is secondary. It does not exist as a good in itself. THAT, indeed, is the unintelligible concept I was struggling with. It only exists parasitically, as it were, on the greater good of human happiness and wellbeing. To suppose freedom exists for its own sake is an indea I find incomprehensible. Yet attached to something else, makes perfect sense. With this in mind, one can see that a free will defense takes only a subsidiary role in an explanation of why pain exists.

As far as Paidion’s response - I do think, if you examine your point of view carefully enough, that you will find you are admitting to many things that I say which you superficially deny. For instance, the point that God allows pain (lets stop calling it the problem of evil!) to produce greater goods. Explain, or think closely about, how it does not follow from what you said that God does PERMIT or ALLOW pain. You push the reason for pain back onto free will and the fallen universe. But on your view are these not greater goods that God wants so much that he allows pain to follow from their existence? I believe any doctrine of the fall (which I think is a coherent doctrine) must include these elements. The question of the problem of pain must be answered on a more fundamental level. Some of the points that must be taken into account are:

a) What was God’s purpose in creating man - what end was he trying to achieve? (This may be the most important question!)
b) Is there any logical way for God to attain this end that does not involve pain?
c) God, presumably, knew that man would fall, or else knew it was possible.
d) What sort of beings was God wanting to create when he created man, in what way are all such creatures connected, and how do their actions all affect each other?

I think the overcoming theodicy can answer these questions at a deeper level, mainly because the other responses (soul-making, freedom, and contrast) are only elements of the more fundamental reason why pain exists.

To expand a little more on what I mean by “overcoming.” I think the best way to put it in the simplest terms is this:

Pain exists, in all its forms, to be “sent away.”

The idea of sending away pain is extremely useful and widely applicable, both on a practical level and in terms of formulating a theology. And by pain I mean any sort of experienced displeasure, physical or psychological.

God perhaps had 3 choices of universes:

a) one with pain, in which it was never sent away
b) one without pain, in which it was never sent away
c) one with pain, in which it was sent away

Perhaps the last choice was more valuable to him? Pain would logically be necessary, obviously, in such a universe, for if it didn’t exist, it could not be overcome.

Also Dan - in what sense do you suppose evil to be overcome if you are not a universalist?

Chris:

I’m totally with you in thinking that “freedom” should have a subsidiary role. Somewhat different reasons, but a very similar underlying moral intuition.

To your discussion of pain: I appreciate wanting to have a tight reduction/definition of “evil” to “pain” and then a precise formulation of “overcoming” as a logical solution to the logical problem of pain. That can be handy when you want a through-going, tight construction. My own approach would be to treat “evil” itself as a properly basic category (as properly basic as any other), even with all of its complexity, and let it be unwrapped like an onion. (After all, onions are properly basic to plenty of discourses, too. A cookbook, for example.) So you’re more likely to see me trying to talk simultaneously about evil, meaning pain, abuse, cruelty, wickedness, corruption and the whole shebang. There are things that can only be said allatonce. But there are also things that can only be said by talking precisely about pain. Or abuse. Or cruelty. Or wickedness. Or corruption.

On not being universalist: Systematically, I think “overcoming” is compatible with EndlessCT or annihilationism; the terms are loose enough. Still, I think the fullest and most satisfying vision of “overcoming” I can conceive or have encountered is a universalist one. But “most satisfying” is not the same as “logically consistent” or “compatible” or “useful for.” So I think that this particular discussion leaves room for all three. Entirely independent of this discussion, I think that ECT is the most evil belief the human mind can conceive; I think it deserves as much of a place in Christian discourse as transmigration of souls, and ongoing human sacrifice. That is to say, I think people should be allowed to talk about everything, but ECT should only be allowed in the most marginal and cautious of discussions. I’d like to see the Christian discourse on these issues evolve into an entirely different discourse, with different priors, and different central positions. I’m apparently thinking on a 1000 year timeframe here :wink:

Aside from that, I’m not a universalist primarily because I think trying to impose a systematic understanding of God’s plan, especially on issues like this, ultimately misses the core point. I think it misses the core point in a number of ways, including: (1) As a matter of normal reading (like you’d do in a Bible study), I think the Bible’s eschatological stories are intended, in part, to speak into our lives in a variety of ways, not give us a system by which we might be tempted to think we have controlled God. So, in one sense, we are supposed to read the end of the Olivet discourse in Matthew 25 and think: “Holy crap. Have I been generous and hospitable enough?” The story isn’t really supposed to make us think, “Wait a second. How exactly do I determine if person X is in or out?” In fact, I think the story is logically structured in such a way that it frustrates efforts to read it that way quite directly; since I have a very high view of Scripture, I think God did that on purpose. When Scripture seems incoherent, that is probably just God making fun of you :wink: (2) On systematic theologies generally: Without an anti-systemic or mystical moment, I don’t think any logically coherent systematic theology can fully honor the tradition or the Biblical texts. It strikes me as presumptuous to claim to know precisely what God is doing or will do. So I welcome systematic theology, and I welcome the moment when we set it aside and we say, “Beside the glory of God, this is just straw.” (3) At the level of what all of this means for Christian practice: I think the most appropriate activity for Christians, when contemplating final judgment, is to pray for mercy for all people, including ourselves, with confidence in God’s mercy. I think this practice puts us closer to the mark than any kind of systematic theology. Overly confident universalism/annihilationism/ECT all threaten to make nonsense of such a practice. So I say: so much the better for the practice and so much the worse for the systems. (4) In terms of heavy-duty efforts to understand Christian eschatology rigorously: I think the New Testament’s eschatological stories are, at least in the first instance, predictions of a particular historical judgment on the Jewish temple system (following N.T. Wright’s style of preterism). As such, when we are trying to read the texts most seriously in their context, I don’t think they primarily address themselves to these contemporary debates at all. So I think that the universalist/annihilationist/ECT discussion, in its current form, tends to treat all of these texts as primarily addressing a discussion that is, in fact, a secondary extension of them. I think the underpinnings of the whole debate need such a thorough reworking that the catagories themselves, as they currently stand, are all misleading, and so I don’t associate myself with any of them. This isn’t to shut off all of these secondary extensions and applications of these texts; I’m game. It is just not what people are generally doing when they use these terms.

But to more directly answer your question on how evil could be said to be overcome: for ECT, it no longer afflicts God’s people. For annihilators: it no longer exists, and perhaps no memory of it even exists. Lots of room to play.

I’m not sure I see how ECT “no longer afflicts God’s people.” Are these people simply not bothered by the fact that human beings, some of whom they may love, are suffering extreme agony, or do they align themselves with the view that such punishments are “deserved” and therefore “enjoy” witnessing such punishment/justice, following the medieval doctrine?

For annihilators: in what way is this obliteration a “good” or “triumph” over evil, more precisely?

I do not see any room for play in these two ideas. I see no reason why God would make people he would either eternally damn or annihilate. I do not think such an action is morally permissible for a perfectly good being. In what way do you justify such an act?

Do you think it possible to conceive of a God greater than the actual one? If no, do you think your notions of “most satisfying” are somehow corrupt?

While I admire the hesitancy to declare one “knows the mind of God,” I think in the end one is forced to at least have a tentative understanding of God’s plan for the afterlife and an explanation of why God would make it such. You do, presumably, believe SOMETHING about the afterlife, don’t you?

I’m not at all attempting a “systematic” understanding of God’s ways. I do think it possible - and indeed necessary - to formulate a consistent picture of the character of the being we call “God,” at least analogically. I think appeals to “mystery” or “transcendence” are helpful to a point, but when they start becoming answers for why we think God does things we think morally reprehensible, we’re simply hand-waving. The discussion does not move forward, nor do we get any closer to understanding God, if such a being exists.

I always ask people with a high view of Scripture what they would do if they read a passage, say, one of the 10 commandments, that read (or seemed to them to read) “thou SHALT skill” instead of SHALT NOT. What do you do, or what would you do on the hypothetical, if Scripture contradicted your moral intuitions? Personally, I would ditch Scripture. I did not come to believe in UR or God, for that matter, based on Scripture, and my belief in such would not be shaken in the least were the Bible found out to be entirely myth.

Chris - I think Dan sounds like a hopeful universalist; not a certain one, but a hopeful one :slight_smile:

Dan, I don’t see the theodicy to which I subscribe as Augustinian thought brought into the Church. Augustinianism, tantamount to Calvinism, is diametrically opposed to libertarian free will. Nor do I subscribe to Augustine’s concept of original sin, which I understand to be a biological inheritance of sin itself, rather than merely the tendency to sin. The Augustinian concept makes us responsible for Adam’s sin, even if we have not personally sinned at all.

The idea that libertarian free will is intrinsically a “greater good” is not abundantly obvious. If considered in those terms, it often seems to be a “greater evil”—at least free will for some people seems to have resulted in far more pain and death than in joy and life, both for themselves and their victims.

I still think the fall of man and nature accounts for the man-made evil in this world. Otherwise there would be a far greater proportion of people who choose the good—though I think the majority of people, even with their fallen natures, do, in fact, usually choose the good for themselves and for others, rather than the evil.

Dan, obviously you think my answers to the problem of evil is a poor answer and falls far short of being a satifsying answer. Well, I am open to a better answer, but thus far in life (and I’m 75), I have never encountered a better one (Uh-oh. Out the window goes the humility to which you referred). Certainly the idea that “God allows evil in order to bring about a greater good” not only is for me a totally unsatisfactory answer, but is a repugnant one. For it makes God who is pure LOVE into an ogre, who “allows” evil for some hidden “greater good” which He never reveals. Thus many thousands of people are angry with Him for “allowing” their little daughter to be raped or their wife to be tortured. If true, it would make one question His omnipotence since He seems impotent in not being able to bring about these hidden “greater goods” without “allowing” or even instigating heinous evil acts. It’s not much wonder that so many people hate God, or at least are very angry with Him, and want nothing to do with Him.

Concerning my belief in the fall of nature itself, I would like to relate a little personal account Many years ago, I made a wild guess that God originally created mosquitoes so that they sucked the juices of plants to produce their young rather than sucking the blood of mammals. About a month later, I happened to read in a science book that an experiment with mosquitoes had been carried out. A large number of mosquitoes were confined in a conservatory which contained only plants. No mammals were available to the mosquitoes. In that environment, the mosquitoes sucked the juices of the plants and produced their young just as readily as they would have if they had sucked the blood of mammals!

I felt that my belief about the fall of nature upon which my “wild guess” was based (which was not really either “wild” or a “guess”) had been supported by the results of the experiment.

Good questions :slight_smile: I’ll try to answer.

No,I don’t think it is poossible. I also don’t think it is possible to fully conceive of a God that is as great as the actual one. I do think all of our perception is highly imperfect. And sure, corrupt.

I totally agree with you that when mystery is used to evade questions, it is justhand-waving that serves to stop inquiry, and that is generally bad. I don’t think I’m abusing mystery in that way…at least, I try hard not to.

Believe is an unfortunate word in English. First, let me answer what I think you might be asking: What do I think about the afterlife? I think the problem is so hard, and our evidence and perception so limited, that any position should be held extremely cautiously. I think we all have only the foggiest of notions about this, and to assert anything with great certainty is the height of silliness. Still, I think we can talk about a host of interesting second-order questions with a lot more confidence. For example, regarding the afterlife, what is logical and coherent to claim, what is morally defensible and reprehensible, what is worthy of faith and not, what are the observable effects of beliefs, and much more besides. But what do I believe? Meaning: In what do I put my trust? What am I consciously committed to? To whom do I entrust the core of my being? What or who do I think merits my loving obedience? Who has my loving commitment? My answer to these is Jesus, who allowed himself to be killed for the forgiveness of all sins, and who cried out, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Do I believe in ECT/annihilationism/universalism? In the fuller sense that I am discussing here, no. I categorically do not believe in any of them. What do I think of them? I think they are all rather silly. This might seem like I am dodging your question, and just trying to avoid being labeled a universalist, perhaps because I’m unwilling to admit it. But I do ask you to trust me when I say that is not what is going on. I find the entire framework of the discussion to be genuinely lacking, and so I abstain from calling myself any of them.

I would read it in light of God, as I believe God is revealed in Jesus. I would see the revelation as only partial…indeed,dangerously partial, without that. I’d be open to readings of the text like this: “This broken command is foreshadowing Jesus, who taught us to die to ourselves so that we could live lives of love.” I think a high view of Scripture requires a thoughtful, contextualized, cautious, critical, reading. Sometimes, people seem to think a “high view” requires a kind of cretinous literalism; I think it requires just the opposite.

Paidion:

On Augustine, the free will theodicy is probably the first theodicy ever formulated. It seems that Augustine was the first person to formulate it. Does this sit uneasily beside his doctrine of original sin,and especially the later Calvinist readings of it? Yes! I think it does. I don’t know my Augustine well at all, but at the level of simple reflection, I don’t find this terribly surprising. I think that when free will is pressed into service as a primary theodicy, it tends to corrupt our understanding of freedom. It doesn’t surprise me that someone would hold both to Augustine’s use of freedom as a theodicy, and to Augustine’s proto-Calvinism regarding concupiscence and free will. You apparently don’t hold to both of these, and in that I think you have a reading that seems more compatible at first glance. But now I want to read more about Augustine’s life; I think there must be an interesting tale to tell about his Manicheism, his free will theodicy and his doctrine of original sin, and I imagine some scholar out there has told it in an enticing way. So thanks for driving my curiosity :slight_smile:

Alvin Plantiga’s Free-Will defense, presented in his book on the problem of evil, is a worthwhile study, and not difficult to follow. Of course, of course, there are critics of his argument, but I’ve not read one to date that is conclusive.

The book is “God, Freedom, and Evil” and I’m sure it’s been talked about here at some point.

There is indeed and interesting tale to tell about Manicheism. One of the basic Manicheistic beliefs is that there is an eternal struggle between good and evil. This fits well with Augustine’s view of eternal conscious punishment of the wicked. He seemed to have thought that once one dies, his character is fixed forever and will always support the good, but if he is not with God loving Him forever, he’s against God, hating Him forever, and will always support evil.

Paidion, I think the tale really gets fun when you try to integrate his free will theodicy into it as well. And he converted from Manicheism, so I don’t think you get to just attribute his post-Manichean beliefs to that. Since he isn’t here to defend himself, you could always accuse him of suffering a Manichean hangover :wink:. But I do think free will, the notion of a weaker God and dualism fit together quite snugly.

Here’s a couple of interesting links

First

cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religions … tology.htm
In Manichaeism the physical world is created by the Evil one as a trap for the light of spirit. At the end of time Jesus will come to separate the majority of humanity who are sunk n carnality from the spiritual elect. He will first separate the righteous elect from sinners, probably the fallen elect; then he will separate the followers of the Manichean church from the children of the world. The righteous must, like the sheep in the Gospel, stand on his right side; the condemned, like the goats, will be banished to his left. The redeemed elect will enter into the joy of the gods (i.e., into the New Paradise), and the condemned will be thrust into hell. All other men will live on this earth under the rule of Christ, in a golden age. Gods, angels, and redeemed men will be together there; evil will have vanished from the world, and men will, if they wish, leave their bodies and travel to heaven. A large quantity of holy light will be freed from this world .
After that the world will end;. Christ will abandon the world, flesh will waste away, and the earth will stand empty.
Then the spheres will plunge down to the earth, and the “great fire” will destroy the ruins of the world, finally deprived of its function. In the world conflagration the last redeemable parts of the light will be freed. As a Final Statue light will ascend to the New Paradise. The fire will, however, punish demons and sinners, and the gods and the righteous will witness their torment without being able to help them.

The special significance of this doctrine, however, rests on the conviction that the victory of light is ultimately an imperfect one, for a certain part of it, trapped in souls, imprisoned in the world, cannot be released because it has been irredeemably corrupted by wickedness. It will be enclosed in the Bôlos prison with the powers of darkness and so condemned to eternal damnation. The fate of these souls is also called the “second death,” an image borrowed from the Revelation of John). In itself the idea of the unredeemability of the damned is nothing unusual. In the Manichean view, however, it takes on unique weight because the light in the cosmos is the suffering part of the substance of God Himself. This Manichean rejection of universal redemption at the end of time had the scandalous implication that God Himself is and will remain imperfect; Augustine threw this implication in the teeth of the Manicheans (Contra Secundinum 20; cf. Böhlig, p. 27; Adam, p. 92: par. 7 of the great Latin abjuration formula).

Second -

Do take a look at the brief article/precis Illaria Ramelli kindly did for Alex on Augustine’s early and later eschatology here at

:slight_smile:

I think that libertarian free will supports a STRONGER God than the absence of it. With the absence of free will, God would simply be manipulating all events. This also implies that He is responsible for all the atrocities carried out by fallen humanity. But by creating human beings with free will, and being still able to influence them so that each free-will agent will sooner or later CHOOSE to submit to His authority—now that describes the POWERFUL God that we have!

I’m not great at metaphysics - but I’m with you on this one Piaidon. It seems to me that Augustine embraced strong determinism - that incorporated exacerbated ECT - because he was reacting against the Manichean hotch-potch in which God has some power to determine and elect, but his power is weak power and, in part, his will is defeated.

Plantinga does illuminate the difference between the philosophical and the pastoral approach to the ‘problem of evil.’ Here is a short excerpt from the little book I referenced above - which is good reading before we go off half-cocked about the pros and cons of free will. It might in fact make a good thread. Anyway, here is the quotation; you can ignore the first two sentences which are meaningless without the previous argument: start with the words “…so the existence…”