The Evangelical Universalist Forum

--The Afterlife--

Theology General Theology
#49

Jesus is our great God and Savior (Titus 2:13), who is before ALL things, and in whom all things hold together (Colossians 1:17).

So, since all things hold together in him, I would imagine Creation would fall apart if Jesus were ever to cease to exist even for a moment, let alone for three days…

Also, I don’t see that Jesus was begotten by the Father “before all ages.” Rather, my understanding is that he was “begotten” by the Father at the time of his miraculous conception in Mary’s womb–in order to visit his creation as a human being, and redeem us with his perfect blood. But Jesus is the ever-existent “I AM” (a recognized title for God):

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. Jn. 8:58-59.

“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” Jn. 10:33.

#50

You guys are going off on a tangent, and it may well be good, but the afterlife understanding is a different thing. None of you or me knows what happens when we die if we look totally to the scriptures. It is all conjecture and hope… Which is not bad in and of itself. The resurrection scriptures speak of Christ and his resurrection, and there is allusion from Paul about the resurrection being the thing we look forward to but come on guys. This is a vague grey area.

#51

Yes, a Binitarian would have the same problem as a Trinitarian, since part of the Binity would cease to exist.

It’s not a problem for me, even though I believe Jesus to be fully divine. He is divine because His Father is divine—the One who begat Him before all ages, the very first of the Father’s acts. If Jesus had ceased to exist for the 3 days after His death and before His resurrection, that would have no effect upon the Father’s essence, the Father whom Jesus addressed as “the only true God.”

#52

And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (Heb:27,28 ESV)

So… this passage indicates a judgment after death…and also describes Christ’s second coming in a way that doesn’t sound like A.D. 70.

#53

So just to be clear, are you saying Jesus… “ceased to exist for the 3 days after His death”?

#54

These things [I address to you], my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state;
but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that you may rather attain to a full assurance in Christ, who was begotten by the Father before all ages, but was afterwards born of the Virgin Mary without any intercourse with man — Ignatius to the Magnesians, Chapter 11.

I don’t think that Jesus was saying that He was the great “I AM” of the Old Testament. I think He was simply saying that before Abraham He existed.

The Greek term is εγω ειμι (egō eimi). This means “I am” with emphasis on the “I”.
The expression is used dozens of time in the New Testament. Here is one example:
Lu 21:8 And he said, "See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ (εγω ειμι) and, ‘The time is at hand!’ Do not go after them.

#55

Is it the human nature of Jesus that died or merely the body?

While Jesus’ body was dead, did His human spirit & or soul then go to paradise &/or hades, etc?

As for His divine nature why would it have been any different when His body was dead than it was in the previous decades of Jesus’ human existence?

https://carm.org/jesus-two-natures

"“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man, which is in heaven”(John 3:13).

#56

How does One Who has ceased to exist raise themselves from the dead while they have no existence (hence no power or ability to do anything, let alone perform their own resurrection)?

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” John 2:19

. . . I lay down my life, that I may take it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again . . . John 10:17-18

#57

Can you supply a link and or accurate reference to where this actual quote as you’ve given it above appears, thanks.

#58

I admit that those verses do appear to indicate that Jesus raised Himself from the dead.
But then here are nine verses in which it is affirmed that God raised Him from the dead:

Ac 2:24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.
Ac 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.
Ac 3:15 and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses.
Ac 4:10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead — by him this man is standing before you well.
Ac 10:40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,
Ac 13:30 But God raised him from the dead,
Ac 13:37 but he whom God raised up did not see corruption.
Ro 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
1Co 6:14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power.

#59

A very interesting topic. Very pertinent for me right now, having just returned from a visit to my wife Alida’s grave. I’ll provide another couple of cents’ worth, although my supply of cents is rapidly diminishing.

We are creatures of time while we remain here in our bodies. The sun rises, it sets, it rises again - that’s 24 hours, a miniscule period of time in the light of eternity. We have no certainty that we will ever see tomorrow since it never actually arrives.

quote
James 4:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

Alida’s life has vanished away. No amount of tears will bring her back to me. Where is she now? I take comfort in the words found in 2 Corinthians 5:

quote:
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

So, Alida is present now with the Lord, since time no longer has any meaning for her. Her spirit is now with her Lord, just one individual but part of a great multitude before the Lamb. Her body is in the ground, awaiting the resurrection day. For her, that day may as well be tomorrow.

We are not left in doubt what will happen on that day.

quote:
Philippians 3: 20, 21
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

What a hope! What a Saviour!

1 On that bright and golden morning, when the Son of Man shall come,
And the radiance of His glory we shall see,
When from ev’ry clime and nation He shall call His people home,
What a gath’ring of the ransomed that will be!
Chorus:
What a gath’ring, what a gath’ring,
What a gath’ring of the ransomed in the summer land of love!
What a gath’ring, what a gath’ring,
Of the ransomed in that happy home above!

I don’t know but I suspect that the hymns author, Fanny Crosby was not an evangelical universalist. I believe that first verse will apply to all mankind after God has completed His work in us.

I can’t wait,

Norm

#60

Thank you for sharing with us, Norm. Your post is much appreciated. Even if I am right in saying that we will not live again until the resurrection, from Alida’s point of view, it will be instantaneous. Even if 3000 earth years passes before the resurrection, it will seem to her as if she was instantly with the Lord immediately after her death.

I used to be afraid of death—afraid that it might be something like sinking into a deep, dark hole. But in 2007, I was rendered unconscious for my surgery. Before that, I looked up at the clock; it said 1:00. Then I heard what sounded like bells tinkling. I glanced at the clock again, and to my amazement it said 3:30. Two and a half hours had transpired during a time that seemed instantaneous to me! The surgery had been done, of course. When I saw that it was 3:30, I said aloud, “This is amazing!” Nurses walking by ignored my words. I think they ascribed it to my coming out of the anesthetic. After that, my thought was that when we die it will be like that. No matter how much or little time it will be until the resurrection, it will seem to us as if it is instantaneous.

#61

Yes, I can. If you look at Volume 1 of “The Ante-Nicene Fathers,” go to chapter 11, you will find it at the very beginning of the longer recension.

Alternatively, if you do not possess this volume, you can go to the following site and download volume 1, and then do a search for “before all ages.”

#62

The human seed goes
down in the ground like a bucket into
the well where Joseph is. It grows and
comes up full of some unimagined beauty.

Your mouth closes here, and immediately
opens with a shout of joy there. - Rumi

I think it will feel like ‘immediately’, though what amount of time that is to an outside observer may well be different.

#63

Thanks, where from?

#64

Rumi. From his poem:
“ON THE DAY I DIE"

On the day I die, when I’m being carried
toward the grave, don’t weep. Don’t say,

He’s gone! He’s gone. Death has nothing to do with going away. The sun sets and

the moon sets, but they’re not gone.
Death is a coming together. The tomb

looks like a prison, but it’s really
release into union

#65

Hmm, Thanks.

Still love you bro.

#66

Oh heck yeah!

#67

What is your electric guitar stable like at this point in life?

#68

Tele, Godin jazz box, that’s it.