The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Biblical Basis For Purgatory And An Infinitely Heinous Punishment

Theology Biblical Theology
#30

Well, NOT exactly. Look at

Let me quote a bit:

It was that vision that filled me with the very great distress which I feel at the sight of so many lost souls, especially of the Lutherans – for they were once members of the Church by baptism – and also gave me the most vehement desires for the salvation of souls; for certainly I believe that, to save even one from those overwhelming torments, I would most willingly endure many deaths.

Well, this element would directly contradict the theological direction…of the Roman Catholic Church, since Vatican II.

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#31

Maybe the church has changed their position. It still agrees with the traditional church.

#33

I assume what you mean by “traditional church”…you mean the Roman Catholic Church before Vatican II? That was the Pope, Cardinals and a counsel of bishops - deciding theological matters - at Vatican II.

#34

Most importantly the Bible. The word for “torment” means “torture” according the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible I have.

#35

20:10 the lake of fire Hell, where the devil joins his former agents, burning since 19:20. tormented: The damned are not annihilated or disintegrated, but kept alive to be tortured for eternity.

Ignatius Catholic Study Bible page 519.

#36

From Thayer’s Greek Lexicon:

  1. prop. to test (metals) by the touchstone

  2. to question by applying torture

  3. to torture; hence univ. to vex with grievous pains of body and mind, to torment

  4. Pass. to be harassed, distressed

#38

Well, you asked. And you still haven’t dealt with Edwards argument.

#40

Killing a blade of grass isn’t as bad as killing a cat and killing a cat isn’t as bad as killing a human. The worst evil ever committed was the killing of the Son of God. We see this because of who Christ is being infinite in value and worth.

#41

If you slander someone, and die, and go to hell to burn for an infinite time and with infinite torture;
I don’t see how who you kill makes much difference - the penalty cannot get any worse, eh?

#42

Dave,

The eternal sin is blasphemy against the Spirit. The Jews hated Christ and committed this sin. They killed Christ. Only a hatred and rejection of Christ is an eternal seeing who God is.

#44

I never claimed that it was certain only plausible. No arguments are deductively certain.

Certain

highly likely

likely

reasonable

unlikely

highly unlikely

It’s reasonable based on the argument. Our courts judge some acts as being more heinous than others all the time (different penalties for different crimes). How you don’t see killing the Son of God is the worst evil imaginable is a mystery. Perhaps you don’t believe he’s the Son of God? Rejecting Christ separates one from His grace. God hardens whom He pleases. It is a hatred of Christ that lasts forever.

#46

qaz

We’re talking about ontology. We’re talking about the type of being. Surely you see different value on different types of being. Killing a blade of grass isn’t as bad as killing a cat and killing a cat isn’t as bad as killing a human. The worst evil ever committed was the killing of the Son of God. We see this because of who Christ is being infinite in value and worth. We attach value to things. The penalty for killing a cat isn’t the same as killing a human.

#47

qaz I would like to get your take on why that is so?

#48

And I like to know…if Chad thinks that the average person…is more valuable, than the average zombie of Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)?

#51

qaz,

Like you said. That’s just the way you see it. I claim the argument is reasonable not certain. It holds within the framework of retributive justice. In a court of law one receives a more severe penalty for abusing a human child than he does for abusing a hamster. This is the world we live in . We do assign numerical value to actions. Torturing a fly isn’t as bad as torturing a human baby.

#53

Even painlessly killing a fly isn’t as bad as painlessly king a human baby. It holds whether there’s pain or not. Painlessly killing a chimpanzee isn’t as bad as painlessly killing a human. The point is that different types of being have different value.

#55

Therefore, he doesn’t have the value a human does. Christ is infinite in value. Torturing the infinitely valuable has and infinite penalty. There’s a fine to pay.

#56

I agree, but to say that anyone is more valuable than anyone else just rubs me the wrong way…

#58

During the first half of the twentieth century, under the influence of social scientists, retributive theories of justice were frowned upon in favor of consequentialist theories. Fortunately, there has been, over the last half-century or so, a renaissance of theories of retributive justice, accompanied by a fading of consequentialist theories, so that we need not be distracted by the need to justify a retributive theory of justice. ~~ William Lane Craig, The Atonement pp. 68-69

People are in hell because they deserve to be. This is not sadism. God doesn’t delight in the suffering in and of itself of those in hell but the glories of His justice.

#60

Well, you’re wrong. Retribution is the way the courts operate. God is holy. Not a maximally good being. You blaspheme a holy God by calling Him unjust and sadistic.