Some say the carnal nature is the mark of the beast, but how can that be true when Rev. 14:9-11 seems to say that anyone who receives the mark will be tormented unto the ages of ages?
We all receive a carnal nature when we’re born, so how could any of us be saved (before the ages run their course) if that’s the mark of the beast?
We are saved by bearing the image of the man of heaven
[Rom 8:29 ESV] - For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
[1Cr 15:49 ESV] - Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
[2Cr 3:18 ESV] - And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
[Col 3:10 ESV] - and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.
man of dust, earthy, carnal, flesh, visible, physical, VS. man of heaven, spiritual, invisible, true reality
heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
[Hbr 10:1 ESV] - For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.
That portion of RevJohn also indicates people receive the mark of the beast in order to do business.
So whatever it means, it’s a willful action with distinct results: they didn’t have the mark of the beast before, and they have it afterward. That cannot be the carnal nature. (Except maybe for our first ancestors, but those people aren’t being talked about in that portion of RevJohn.)
To get a better understanding of what the mark is I look up the word and here is the only other usage of mark in the bible besides the mark of the beast
Acts 17:29 NRSV
Since we are Gods offspring, we ought not to think that the deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, an** image(mark)** formed by the art and imagination of mortals.
Kind of interesting as we’re contrasting Spirit(deity) with Physical(flesh).
This passage is basically a summary of my viewpoint a cypher if you will.
1Cor 15:45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shallf also bear the image of the man of heaven.
Here is every instance of imagination G1761 imagination/ the desires of the heart/carnal mind the carnal mind brings forth the image
[Mat 9:4 ESV] - But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?
[Mat 12:25 ESV] - Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.
[Act 17:29 ESV] - Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.
[Hbr 4:12 ESV] - For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
There are only really 2 usages of the word mark(charagma) the mark of the beast and Acts 17:29. Both are referring to idolatry vs. the True God. Physical vs spiritual.
Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.
a (a is added) man is anthropos=mankind carbon is 6 protons 6 electrons 6 neutrons, six is the day of mans creation
Name signifies more than just the word “Nicholai” (a little “left behind” reference) scratched on someones hand or head. When we pray in the name of Jesus it isn’t in the letters J E S U S, its what those letters represent. Its character or nature. And the nature of the number is mankind or Adam. As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. To those who overcome I will give a new name, a new nature. (how do we overcome? by the blood of the lamb, by picking up our cross and dying to our flesh, by the new and living way inaugurated by Jesus)
Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments , and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. (white garments=linen for priests, as opposed to wool/ coming from beasts)
Rev 15:2 And I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands.
Image(eikon/icon)
There are 3 categories of usage here
the inscription on Caesars coin (give to caesar what is caesars).[size=150] Caesar is a man who is a god[/size] Look at the context of this. In Matthew 22 its the story of the wedding banquet and the man being thrown out for not having his wedding clothes. The wedding clothes signify the man of heaven, clothed in righteousness. Then the caesar piece, natural vs. spiritual, then we’re back to talking about the resurrection again. (1 cor quoted above). Mark 9 and Luke 20 have the same except the first part is the story of the tenants. The end quote Jesus uses is “the stone the builders rejected is the chief cornerstone” which is of course talking about the temple, and the temple is us, not some building made of gold or silver or of human hands (Heb 10:1). The rest of Mark and Luke narratives are basically identical.
Romans 1:23 exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for the image of man, beasts, birds, creepers. What caused this exchange? They became futile in their thoughts, their minds, imaginations, and they were given up to the lusts of the flesh
Image of the man of heaven, who is the image of the invisible God. Contrasted with the image of the man of earth/dust/flesh
Image of the beast
I contend each of these categories is summed up as:
Image of the physical/creation vs. spiritual/creator, idol vs. true God
Where did the image of the beast get set up (the abomination of desolation)? In the holy of holies. Don’t you know you are the temple of the Holy Spirit? A temple not built by human hands, which is only a shadow of the things to come, not the very image. Come let us be making man in our image. Do not be conformed to this world, but to the image of the Son who is the express image of God.
What is the theme of Revelation?
Rev 1: 1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants––things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,
Signified=given in signs
Revelation=unveiling G601 The revelation of mystery, which is Christ in you the hope of glory. Creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. Even now this gospel is veiled, their minds are veiled, just as moses had to wear a veil to cover the glory which was fading, which is a type, as all these things happened for our example.
Isa 25
And He will destroy on this mountain The surface of the covering cast over all people, And the veil that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death forever
How? by throwing death into the lake of fire, who else is in the lake of fire but the beast and those with the image
The veil was torn, which is Christs flesh, the veil is death, the veil is over our minds, our minds our blinded by the god of this world so we will not see the glory, Christ in you is the hope of glory
The man of sin/perdition=antichrist/beast, Therefore, just as through one man (old man/earthy/dust) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned––, what is death again? the veil cast over all people, and sin was condemned in the FLESH
Just found this this morning
Chi Xi Stigma (666)
the 22nd, 14th and an obsolete letter (4742 as a cross) of the Greek
alphabet (intermediate between the 5th and 6th), used as numbers;
denoting respectively 600, 60 and 6; 666 as a numeral:-six hundred
threescore and six.
see GREEK for 4742
Stigma G4742
Here is the only use of stigma(4727)
[Gal 6:11 NKJV] - See with what large letters I have written to you with my own hand!
[Gal 6:12 NKJV] -** As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh**, these [would] compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
[Gal 6:13 NKJV] - For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
[Gal 6:14 NKJV] - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
[Gal 6:15 NKJV] - For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision**(old covenant/natural)** nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation**(new covenant/spiritual)**.
[Gal 6:16 NKJV] - And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy [be] upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
[Gal 6:17 NKJV] - From now on let no one trouble me, for I bear [size=150]in my body the marks[4742][/size] of the Lord Jesus.
[Gal 6:18 NKJV] - Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with your spirit. Amen.
Here are all uses of 666 in the bible
2Ch 9:13
Solomon received 666 talents of gold per year, (1King 10:14 same thing) kings bringing gold into Jerusalem
I see this as a type of:
Rev 21 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. 26They will bring into it the glory and the honor(wealth) of the nations.
-here is another usage of the word honor
1 cor 6:20 For you were bought with a** price**; therefore glorify God in your body.
-the wealth the kings bring into the new jerusalem is those who have been tormented which we know is touchstone to test the purity of gold
(also in 2ch 9 is the description of an ivory throne overlaid with gold, only other reference to a white throne in bible)
Rev 13:18
This calls for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the beast’s number, for it is man’s number, and his number is 666.
Ezr 2:13
the descendants of Adonikam: 666; ** Adonikam means “The Lord Arose”**
Neh 7:18 is a paralel passage to the above, except the numbers are different (bigvai also has a diff number in Ezra 2:14)
the descendants of Adonikam, 667;
Neh 7:19 the descendants of Bigvai, 2,067; (why the number discrepancy? to link these two names together?)
These are the only two instances of 67 appearing in the bible except here
Neh 7:72 What the rest of the people gave amounted to 20,000 gold drachmas, 2,000 silver minas, and 67 priestly garments.
adonikam=the lord arose (the daystar arises in our hearts)
bigvai =in my body
67 priestly garments (white robes/new creation)
"And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and* those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark[a]and over the number of his name**, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God."* Rev 15:2
“those who have victory over”= “overcomers”
What have they “overcome”? the beast, … his image and … his mark[a]and … the number of his name
2 Thes 2:1-12- NOT some bye and bye Hal Lindsey/Jerry Jenkins endtime scenario. I think it’s an “everyman” story about SELF on the throne.
Right on Gem, the overcomers, are the ones who have victory over.
What do we always hear in christian circles about having victory over? Sin in our lives. Sin was condemned in the flesh.
The overcomers are those who dwell in heaven, carnal christians are those who dwell on the earth (the beast had power over those who live on the earth), unsaved peoples are those who live in the seas (do people really live in the sea?, disciples fishers of men)
1 cor 15 As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive, but each in his own order, the anointed firstfruits:
Overcomers=firstruits=barley harvest (passover/wave sheaf offering)
then those who are christs at his coming:
Carnal christians=wheat harvest (pentecost) wheat and tares have to be burned away, tares are sown by the devil, who is the father of lies, his seed is lies
then comes the end when He delivers over every rule, authority, power:
unsaved=grape harvest (tabernacles) the grapes are tread under foot, wrath of God poured out
that God may be all in all:
All three are used for dinner with the Father, bread and wine
In REV Jesus is talking to the churches, then singles out the overcomers
I appreciate all the interesting linguistic and thematic connections (although I am not a big fan of numerology studies).
However, it doesn’t change the context of the mark of the beast in the verse cited from RevJohn. I certainly do not doubt it is connected to original sin thematically (and never did doubt that), but by your own argument it must be a physical mark given at a particular time in particular circumstances for particular purposes (just as idol worshipers made a physical image to worship, and just as people made stigma marks for ownership/slave/religious purposes), which is in fact what the verse in RevJohn also specifically says: it’s a mark given by the government of the Beast to show who is loyal to the Beast (and so who has permission to buy and sell under the government of the Beast.)
If that doesn’t fit the situation of the fall of the Temple in 70, or the Roman persecution of the 90s, or anything else up to this point in history, that isn’t my fault. 
But it does nevertheless mean that the mark of the beast in RevJohn is not in itself the fallen/carnal/original sin nature of man, even though it is certainly related to it.
And it’s still on the way.
First sorry about another long post, I always intend to give short answers, and it just happens.
After thinking on this more, you may be correct that the mark is not the carnal nature. The image is the carnal nature, the mark is taken by those who have subjected themselves to their carnal nature, the fruits of the flesh, lust, greed, envy, strife, etc. vs. the mark of the Spirit, love joy peace patience kindness goodness self-control. The word mark (charagma) is from the same as grace (charis), also charisma the gifts of the spirit.
Those aren’t numerology Jason, just a word study. Those are words, they only appear in the instances I wrote, now if I said there was some mystical power to the numbers 67 and 666 you could call it numerology. I believe every word to be inspired in the Bible. God is in control of all things and we have the manuscript evidence we have because thats the way its planned. If He planned it then maybe there is some connection between the words, considering He also created the languages. If a word only appears once or twice in the entire bible, and there are linking themes there, there may be a connection.
I’m not saying that the stuff didn’t relate to 70 AD, or to a possible future antichrist like we’ve all been taught (although I doubt the future interpretation more). Either way there are many layers to the bible. The literal happened for our example
For I want you to know, brothers,a that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3and all ate the same spiritual food, 4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
[size=150]1 Cor 10:6 Now these things took place as examples for us[/size], that we might not desire evil as they did. 7Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.” 8We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. 9We must not put Christb to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, 10nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. 11[size=150]Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.[/size]
2 Cor 3
3And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.b
4Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6who has made us competentc to be **ministers of a new covenant,[size=150] not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.[/size]
** An actual antichrist kills, people actually were killed by God for their idolatry, but the spirit gives life, when we realize that idolatry kills us inside, when we worship anything not God, the lusts of our flesh, the pride of life, we have put ourselves in the Holy of Holies as god,when we overcome the beast, our nature we are given life. Eternal life is knowing God the Father and His son Jesus. The kingdom of heaven is at hand, behold I come quickly. Knowing what some microchip is that we are going to have to take, or whatever gives no life. For the past 2000 years people have been reading this book, every evil leader is the antichrist, the end of the world is nigh, this brings nothing but fear and anxiety, "For I have not given you a spirit of fear, but of power and love and discipline.
12Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord,f are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
How are we transformed? By removing the veil, what veil? The carnal nature, the flesh, that Jesus tore.
As for types and such, the entire book of revelation is based on temple symbolism, the letter is what took place in the actual physical temple that the symbols are based on. The lake of fire represents the bronze laver, which was used to purify not punish, the 7 candlesticks the menorrah, the seven angels are the seven planets which were imprinted in the holy place. The throne of God is in the holy of holies, the veil is Jesus’ flesh. The book is about the revelation of Jesus Christ within us. Is/was there literal fulfillment? I don’t actually care, and I don’t mean that to be flippant, but that the spiritual revelation is personal, it changes my life now, not in some distant dark future where some evil guy takes over the world. How is he overcome? by the blood of the lamb and his testimony. Why was his blood shed? to save me from my sins. So I overcome my sin with His blood. How would a world leader be overcome by the blood btw?
Thanks for starting this thread. Awesome conversation. I study genetic engineering a bit and it looks as if we will soon take our own evolution in hand via genetic enhancements. The scientists are talking about a trans-human race in the near future. They are already creating chimeras. This is not new technology. The Nephilim or giants, prior to the flood, created beings that were human/animal hybrids. They also created mixed animals. God created everything to produce “after it’s own kind”. So, humans produce humans, dogs produce dogs, etc. The soul is in the blood, the soul is produced in the conception of like kind. But, the fallen angels mixed with the women of the earth (not like kind). They used the shell of humans/animals. Because this was not producing “after it’s own kind”, there was no soul. The demons then inhabited the bodies they created and were the Nephilim or giants. Noah was “righteous in his generation”. He had not been genetically enhanced and had not produced genetically modified offspring. The flood was to cleanse the earth of the giants. These beings will return from out of the pit and do the same thing they did before the flood. “It will be like the days of Noah”. Because of my studies on genetics, I think we will see a literal beast. Closer to the end, science will lead us into the trans-human age. Many people will choose genetic modification for various reasons, possibly even as a pandemic cure, and it will result in human/animal (beast) attributes. I believe this will be the mark of the beast. There is a huge genetic program slated for 2012 and I believe this to be the beginning of the neo evolution of man. It will start with the military, so say the scientists.