The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Commands Of The Monster God Of The Old Testament

Yep… that’s what you get when you track outside of fundamentalism.

Are you Catholic? Only Catholics (and maybe PU folks here), subscribe to purgatory. The Protestants and Eastern Orthodox, don’t agree with it.

This is discussed on the forum here:

Topic: Did the Church Fathers support the doctrine of purgatory?


Since you loosely use the term “blasphemy” against some folks here. Let’s see what some sites (including Got Questions) - has to say.


I can say the same thing, regarding the tribulation and Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)! :wink:

I find it unfair to accuse that it is God who is doing whatever evils God “allows” sinful men to choose to do. I think those who do such things are seen as the responsible party. Do you see no difference in God ordering “go and kill everyone” and the decisions of men to kill their own children? I’d say that God would be responsible for what God tells me to do, but not for the slaughter of abortion if I don’t believe he’s told us to do that.

Of course, as I told Hollytree, I find the belief that God wants innocent children slaughtered or sacrificed consistent with the view of all pagan religions, but not with Jesus’ approach to children, or my conscience. But as I told him, I’m impressed and enlightened to see the willingness of you guys to defend slaughtering children.

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In this video clip, John Piper asserts: “It’s right for God to slaughter women and children any time He pleases.”

I believe Piper misunderstands God’s sovereignty; and that also, like many Christians (and prophets), he confuses God with Satan whenever he misattributes evil to God. I believe this confusion happens when people do not recognize the progressive revelation of God’s goodness revealed in the Scriptures—because they have a fearful, legalistic death-grip on the Bible that causes them to read the Scriptures by the letter which kills, instead of by the Spirit who gives life.

God was once indeed completely sovereign; however, for the time being He has chosen to give some of his sovereignty to created people, that is, to angels and to men. Therefore, at present, God, by His own choice, is not completely sovereign, and so we must never assign evil to God (such as killing children), but rather to fallen angels and to men.

We are in a classroom, and THE lesson to master here, by the exercise of our own choice, is the decision to surrender back to Christ our individual sovereignty. Each person must come to recognize that God always knows what’s best, and He is trustworthy.

Those who unconditionally surrender themselves to the Savior during their tenure on earth, go to be with God in heaven at physical death. But–

Matthew 25:41 (YLT)
Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to THE FIRE, the AGE-DURING, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers.

–those who do not unconditionally surrender in this life will continue their lessons postmortem, outside the City, in the remedial fire, until they finally pass the test by surrendering to Christ, and come in through the always open gates to take the free gift:

Rev. 21:25
On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.

Rev. 22:17
The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

When the very last person (presumably Satan) has finally surrendered to Jesus, then the purpose of “the second death,” the lake of fire, will be finished. And God, the Son, will relinquish back to God, the Father, his role as “Savior”—that work being finished, since everyone is finally “saved” (from sin, lies, death, and captivity to self-rule):

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 (NIV)
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ ALL will be made alive.
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he [Christ] must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, SO THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.

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Well here we go, the chicken and egg thoughts. Hey, does God have total control or not? Simple question. Does His allowing constitute doing?

At what point are you saying OT scripture is null and void? The flood account is a good start. Also the Decry by Herod to kill all the babies 2 years old and under is fodder for thought. Mind you Bob, I’m sure you have went over this time and again. But is God involved as I think He is, or are you saying the scripture is tainted?

I don’t believe in satan as an entity, but I do agree with the idea of ‘progressive’ revelation.

There is no being called satan. Satan is the adversary in us we portray to the God of creation. I appreciate your view but I disagree
So be it :roll_eyes:


But regarding progressive revelation, we may ask:

So was the Old Testament view of Satan different than the New Testament view? Yes, vastly different, but perhaps the best way to put it is not so much that the Old Testament was wrong about Satan, but that the Old Testament was almost completely uninformed about him. The first reference to Satan [in my Bible] is not even until 548 pages into the Old Testament. Satan is first mentioned only 3 pages into the New Testament. The total number of times Satan is mentioned in the Old Testament is 19 times, 14 of which are in the book of Job. The New Testament mentions Satan (or his devils) nearly 200 times, despite the fact that it is five times shorter than the Old Testament in length. Richard Murray.

Satan was cast into the lake of fire is 70 A.D. where he is being tormented day and night forever and ever. Nonetheless, Satan was the one who destroyed Job’s family. What He meant for evil God meant for good. Job says, "The Lord has given and the Lord has taken away, blessed be the name of the Lord. In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

So you are telling me you have the inside scoop to who or what satan really is?

When summarizing the Gospel for the first Gentile converts, Peter described “how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power, who went about DOING GOOD and HEALING ALL who were OPPRESSED OF THE DEVIL; for God was with Him.” (Acts 10:38).

And we have many revelations in the New Testament about him, like these explanations of Jesus,

He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:44b.

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. John 10:10.

Fallen angels are people like us, with a mind, will, and emotions. For example,

Acts 19:13-17 (NIV)
13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.”
14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this.
15 One day the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?”
16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.
17 When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor.

Well, at least we agree there is a devil. But regarding 70 AD, I am still seeing much demonic evil in today’s world, e.g., the sword, famine, and plague. I believe the devil is yet to be evicted, but we are to resist him, using spiritual, not carnal, weapons. God has already disallowed all evil through the finished work of Christ, but Christians need stand on, and enforce, that victory.

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 1 Peter 5:8.

Some demonic activity is through human agents, like the use of sword. But we are not to be passive victims, defrauded of our inheritance in Christ. And we know we are to instruct people in the truth, in the hope that “they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.” (1 Tim. 2:25).

I believe Satan and his demons are in hell. Hell is another dimension that is outside our dimensions. So, I guess Demons can still influence us like they did Job. What Satan meant for evil God meant for good in killing Jobs children. Job says, The Lord has given and the Lord has taken away, blessed be the name of the Lord. The text goes on to say, in all this Job did not sin with his lips. God was the ultimate cause or secondary cause in that He allowed Satan to take Jobs children. You identify God with evil and therefore commit blasphemy. The cross was evil on Satan’s part but good on God’s part. God planned the crucifixion. (acts 4:27-28). To paraphrase the OT mirror: They meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. (Genesis 50:20). The most profound thing we can say about suffering and evil is that Christ entered into it and turned it for good. There are scores of OT passages on God taking life (He’s the unique giver and taker of life) As I stated in the OP He’s holy (unique). Holiness when applied to God not only refers to moral purity but to everything that separates God from His creation and His creatures. There are ways we are like God and ways we are not. He’s distinct. For example: God in infinite in wisdom and knowledge and sees all circumstances past, present, and future. He’s in a privileged position. He’s all-powerful, all-knowing, omnipresent, self-sufficient, In control of the universe. We are none of these things. What they meant for evil God meant for good. We see this all through the OT when God judges His people. He will use evil to judge His people and then turn around and judge those who brought evil against His people. (Judges 2:11-19; Isaiah 10:5-6) One act two intentions. Mans intentions are evil God’s intentions are holy and good. God didn’t take delight in the evil and suffering in and of itself at the cross. But in what was accomplished at the cross.

hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the LORD. ~~ 1 Cor. 5:5

Your conditional ‘BUT’ negates totally everything you just claimed before that… God’s victorious Christ is NOT dependent upon ANYONE’S efforts… little wonder evangelicalism gets dismissed as insipid and contradictory.

Is that the best you have to believe in a real person as Satan?

I agree. Further, we cannot add anything to Christ’s finished work. But the benefits of his victory should be received, enjoyed, and shared with others.

That is what I’m talking about. :smile:

I agree, but I believe that the only death ever sanctioned by God was that of His Son, to set Creation free from death. (Hence, I don’t believe God wants believers to be martyred, although that certainly does continue to happen in this fallen world. Again, we cannot add to Christ’s finished work.)