The Evangelical Universalist Forum

THE DOCTRINE OF JESUS—Leo Tolstoy


#21

Do you propose to take the OT as it is written, as the perfect revelation of God, davo? I’ve been meaning to ask you that.


#22

whooo


#23

So you seem to suggest that the verse I quoted does not apply to us, but only to warn the Jews about the coming destruction in A.D. 70. Then why do you think Jesus’ sacrifice covers us people today? How do you know that wasn’t accomplished only for the sake of the people of the first century?


#24

My question is if you think it is? And if so, how does it deal with us today?


#25

I do, warts and all… BUT THAT is in no way hitched up to the simplistic, mind-numbing headspace of the fundamentalist who can’t see past their nose, as I’ve previously made clear elsewhere on the forum.


#26

That’s right… Jesus references a familiar past account from their story so they’d be fully aware of any future prospects IF they perchance ignore His account of their continuing story; of which Jesus came to further outlay in what scholars refer to ‘the mini-apocalypse’ as per Mt 24 / Mk 13 / Lk 17, 21.

So, it’s never been a case of either / or, but BOTH. Jesus’ offering of himself was DIRECTLY on behalf of all Israel… Jesus was Israel’s Messiah. and yet because he was fully obedient, even unto death, he was THEREBY appointed as the world’s LORD…

Act 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Jesus came as Israel’s prophetic “Christ” aka “Messiah” AND as such in consequence of his total obedience was MADE the world’s LORD. It was ALWAYS in the machinations of God that humanity be wholly blessed… Israel / Jesus was THE means to the ends.

Where there came any hindrance or potential hindrance to Israel’s survival (because without them the world beyond would remain lost in darkness (ignorance) as to the Creator) God on occasion had to deal harshly — both internally or externally. In Jesus then came the end of that story.

Now it doesn’t make it any less raw IMO, i.e., warts and all, but at least knowing any who perished in the greater cause (redemption / reconciliation) ALL who did were received into His presence thereafter; at least that’s the pantelist position on this.


#27

VERY GOOD! I suggest that for the same reason, in order to personally appropriate the benefits of Christ’s sacrificial death, repentance was necessary for both the Jews as well as for the rest of the world at the time and for all time thereafter.


#28

You got it right when you said:

:in order to personally appropriate the benefits of Christ’s sacrificial death, repentance was necessary for both the Jews as well as for the rest of the world at the time:

There is no view of there after. It was all historical and great.


#29

I’ve read Tolstoy and as I’ve said, it’s a lot to take in.
But on the other hand, this makes, in my current state of mind, more sense:


#30

What do you mean by ‘historical’?
Is Jesus dead? Is the Father dead?