The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Hitler Dilemma

Evangelical Universalism
#65

@ PastorMark

“If hell is forever for his victims as well as he then there is no justice in the afterlife.”

You don’t need to refer to the holocaust for that fact, I think there are examples of murderers who became Christians in prison after they killed people that weren’t Christians themselves. Of course you might argue, Non-Christians deserve death anyways and they had their chance to repent but then you can’t use Hitler as argument against universalism.

BTW I believe that what happened in 70 AD might have been the judgement of Gehenna, without being a preterist, I don’t think that Gehenna and the lake of fire are the same. So Gehenna would be an earthly judgment and the lake of fire an eschatological and metaphysical judgment.

#66

Its true that Hitler or the holocaust is not needed as a point. But non Universalists LOVE to use him to argue against. As revealed in my opening statement, this post is an rebuttal to the Oh so common meme, “Well what about Hitler?”

#67

The term satan is accuser, and to go beyond that you will either believe God is in control or not. If God is in control, then there is no satan, in the context of what you and many think satan is, I believe that satan is the accuser, the part of us that just like Adam, wanted to be great.

It will be interesting to hear your response…

#68

Ill pass. Just cant get in the mood to argue the obvious.

#69

If it is so obvious it should be child’s play,This is where we get to the rub of what we believe and can verbalize. :thinking:

#70

Maybe tomorrow. IM tired. We just wrapped up VBS.

#71

This should keep you company until then.

1 Like
#72

The New Testament itself is evangelical. The Greek word for gospel is “euangelion” (the letter “v” does not exist in Greek. The word refers to the sharing of the gospel. And that gospel is “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forsaking of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:38). The evangelical message is not “an understanding of the Bible”; it is the essence of Christianity.

Your view that everyone is “covered” by Christ’s death no matter how he lives is not just another “understanding” of what Jesus did for us. It is a false understanding; it is the ultra-universalist understanding, held by the modern day Unitarian-Universalist “Church.” It’s blind faith that “everyone’s going to be all right” regardless of how they live.

What Jesus did by His death and resurrection is to provide a means to deliver us from wrongdoing, thereby rendering us fit to stand before Him.

T

3 Likes
#73

Sven… as you know I agree 100% that AD70 indeed corresponds with Jesus’ prophetic reference to Gehenna — and also that the same likewise corresponds with John’s ‘lake of fire’ in that such was the “earthly judgment” and as such WAS indeed by that very nature eschatological, AND YET ALSO carried the self-same covenantal overtones (that some might view as metaphysical). Which is WHY John uses two designations for the one reality, i.e., the lake of fire OR the second death.

The FIRE demonstrated the total temporal destruction of that old covenant world AND the SECOND DEATH shows the nature of the death to be covenantal and final, i.e., contrary to all teachings of Universalism… there was—is NO resurrection out for all such as had been cast therein; it was the end! THAT is not ECT BECAUSE it is NOT postmortem… it was all relative to their old covenant world that ended and is no more.

#74

Hermano, no offence, but it is this kind of thinking that caused many to be burned at the stake. As Jesus said, " Is it not written in your Law, " I said you are gods."? Humans are the gods of this world, and we have the power to create evil things as well as good things.

#76

You may be right, but the words you used in the quote are more or less what the bible calls ‘sin’, not ‘satan’.
I personally don’t have any trouble with the idea of created beings that exist but that we are unable to see; if I understand correctly, one use of ‘heaven’ is to indicate that portion of creation that is invisible to us now, but just as real, or more so, than visible matter and beings.
God Himself is present everywhere, but invisible to us now, and angels as protectors, messengers, servants fit into a conception of reality that is infinitely larger, higher, and stranger, perhaps, than we can imagine.

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#77

I don’t often try to correct what you think, Dave, but I should this time. My late dear wife Alida saw a demon one night beside our bed and woke up screaming. She was very clear about what she saw. The house had a history with a previous occupant dabbling in the occult. The next morning, I arranged for our pastor to pray over the house. As far as I know, the demon never returned.

On the other side of the ledger, many Christians, including me, are certain that an angel has occasionally helped us out of tricky situations. It is possible “to entertain angels unaware”. They don’t usually manifest themselves dressed in white robes and sporting a pair of wings, more often they assume the form of a human being. But, as you mentioned concerning angels, we co-habit this world with spiritual beings, some benevolent, others malevolent.

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#78

Norm - that’s what I said! I have no trouble with those wonderful experiences at all!
Oh!! I see - you picked up on “unable to see” - I should have said ‘usually unable to see’.
Ronda - my wife - had an experience somewhat like that.
I humbly take your correction, as always, and welcome additional harsher judgements as you see fit. lol

2 Likes
#79

Yes, I agreed and HE HE HE provided the means. Gosh Don, how many times do we have to debate this.

When folks know of God and what his son did, they realize that there is a special place for them but my contention is that all of humanity will be universally ‘saved’ as you want to debate…

You want those folks who don’t see things as you do not to go to hell, but to a place of correction and thus at some time will understand God’s truth. This is your line in the sand, and so be it if that is what you believe, I applaud you. I don’t see it the same but hey… what the heck.

Sounds a lot like purgatory to me, but what do I know :thinking:

#80

That’s a good comparison! Hell is like one big “purgatory”—that which purges evil out of those who will inhabit it after they are resurrected, if they have not, during their lifetimes, appropriated the enabling grace of God which is made available by the sacrifice of Jesus the Anointed.

Here is the reason the apostle Paul gave for Jesus’ death, and how it benefits us now:

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)

#81

Sounds to me he was talking to first century Christians… And not to us.

#82

Well, he was writing to Titus who lived in the first century. Also, how could he talk to us? We didn’t live until 2000 years later. But what difference does that make? People are people whenever they have lived. The purpose of Jesus’ death was universally applicable.

But even you affirm that Jesus’ death covers everyone no matter how they live. This would not be the case if it had applied only to first-century people. If His death had been efficacious only for first-century people, you wouldn’t be covered either.

#83

You need to get out of that small box into a bigger world imo. The gospel is so MUCH bigger than those tired platitudes of ‘only for them’.

1 Like
#84

Well I feel that all are covered. The point I was making is applied to the verbiage, thus I can with some real understanding say that Jesus came to forgive all sin in God’s eye’s. You may not like it and can kick and stammer, but the truth is the truth. CHRIST’S redemption has forgiven all sin. It yes did happen in the first century but the application of the sacrifice is through the ages.

Good luck and peace.

:wink:

#85

I’m not doing either, just disagreeing with your truncated interpretation, as I see it.
C’mon, I gave you a shiny object to follow…