The Hitler Dilemma

PastorMark · July 19, 2019, 8:40pm

Hi there. Theres no dilemma for me either. The dilemma belongs to those who’s rules of salvation leave them with Hitlers victims suffering eternal judgement alongside their murderer. The entire essay is meant to present to them a strong case that their theology is broken.

Hagalaz47 · July 19, 2019, 9:27pm

And a fine article it is too. Really well written and makes the points very elequently.I remember listening to a Martin Zender show where he made that same point, that according to traditional Christian doctrine the victims of Hitler went straight from the gas chambers to an eternity of torture. And they call that good news. Good to be amongst fellow believers. Just joined.

Hagalaz47 · July 19, 2019, 9:28pm

Thank-you. Good to be in this oasis of sanity and truth!

wmb2003 · July 20, 2019, 4:15pm

I believe the terrestrial realm was created purely for redemptive purposes. So that would make the material realm the place where judgement is meted out. Jesus said those who do not believe are “condemned already.” [John 3:18]

I think we can all agree that there is plenty of “weeping and gnashing of teeth” right here on this sin cursed earth. When we ascend to receive our celestial bodies [1 cor 15] this will all seem like a terrible nightmare and there will be no more tears.

wmb2003 · July 20, 2019, 4:27pm

Interesting. So I take it your don’t believe in the testimony of the Bible?

PastorMark · July 20, 2019, 4:29pm

Well that is terribly bleak. But if as some believe, the after life is a projection of ones own expectations, then you might want to work on that hopefulness.

PastorMark · July 20, 2019, 4:32pm

Except for the order as established in Hebrews.
Appointed to die…and then the judgement.

wmb2003 · July 20, 2019, 5:45pm

I think we all have a tendency to think in terms of this terrestrial realm of time and space as thought that’s all there is or as though heaven is like the earth. Paul said "But as it is written, “Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.” (1 Cor 2:9). So we should lift our eyes to the heavens and realize that there is a reality far more glorious and amazing than this material world. The laws of nature only apply to the nature they were written for. This lower realm. Who can say what awaits us? Its so exciting!

maintenanceman · July 20, 2019, 10:56pm

wmb, you have to go back in time to understand why I and others here don’t believe anyone today is condemned. The context is the real issue. Jesus was indeed talking to the first century Christians… Good luck.

AndreLinoge · July 30, 2019, 7:00pm

When Jesus announced in Matthew 24:34 that "this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled,” he was prophetically addressing that yet future generation, those who will be alive when the events are finally being completely fulfilled.

Why didn’t Jesus say “that generation” instead of “this generation?”

steve7150 · July 30, 2019, 7:18pm

Because up to 25.35 Jesus was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem so he did mean “this generation” at that time but at 25.35 or 36 he was talking about the second coming far in the future, not 70AD. IMO Mathew put together different discourses.

AndreLinoge · July 30, 2019, 9:58pm

Sounds contrived. Is there any hard evidence that this is so?

Hermano · July 30, 2019, 10:58pm

Here’s a relevant principle discussed by Prof. Bloomfield that I mentioned elsewhere:

Facts to be Considered by All Full Preterists

But regarding Bob’s contention above that the apostle Paul may have been confused about the timing of the Second Coming, here is what futurist Professor Arthur Bloomfield, in his book, Signs of His Coming: A Study of the Olivet Discourse, has to say,

“Many prophecies are expressed in the words of he people who will be living when the prophecy is fulfilled. Jeremiah said, ‘Babylon is fallen, is fallen.’ Revelation repeats it, applying it to a city that has not yet been built. The prophecy is put in the words of the people who will see it happen.

Many prophecies are so worded that when they happen, the prophecies will read as though they were current news items. This is one of the most remarkable features of prophecy. Paul used this principle when he wrote, ‘Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up.’

Some have argued from this that Paul expected to live until the resurrection, and that he was greatly deceived as to the time. But other statements of Paul show that he was well-informed; as, for instance, ‘That day shall not come, except here come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.’

Rather, Paul was conforming to standard prophetic practice in putting the prophecy in the words of the people who will be living when the time comes.”

davo · July 31, 2019, 1:06am

Poor Paul, he was sooo confused… NOT!!

With prêterism you have… biblically historic prophetic pronouncement followed by biblically historic prophetic fulfilment — as then witnessed in biblical history.

With futurism you have… biblically historic prophetic pronouncement followed by unbiblical hysteric prediction — beyond the biblical story and endlessly so.

pilgrim · July 31, 2019, 12:03pm

And yet none of the Church Fathers realised that the parousia had already taken place. How confused everybody was until centuries later when preterism reared it’s head.

davo · July 31, 2019, 12:32pm

REALLY??

How about the likes of Eusebius Pamphili of Caesarea (AD. 264-339) — he didn’t just collate his views in a vacuum — seems he was less confused than you are willing to credit on these things John…

Book III. Chapter VII.—The Predictions of Christ.

It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events.

His words are as follows: “Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

The historian (Josephus), reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand persons perished by famine and sword, and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain. But the tallest of the youths and those that were distinguished for beauty were preserved for the triumph. Of the rest of the multitude, those that were over seventeen years of age were sent as prisoners to labor in the works of Egypt, while still more were scattered through the provinces to meet their death in the theaters by the sword and by beasts. Those under seventeen years of age were carried away to be sold as slaves, and of these alone the number reached ninety thousand.

These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which he uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said:

“If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground.”

And then, as if speaking concerning the people, he says, “For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” And again: “When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.”

If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvellously strange.

Concerning those calamities, then, that befell the whole Jewish nation after the Saviour’s passion and after the words which the multitude of the Jews uttered, when they begged the release of the robber and murderer, but besought that the Prince of Life should be taken from their midst, it is not necessary to add anything to the account of the historian.

But it may be proper to mention also those events which exhibited the graciousness of that all-good Providence which held back their destruction full forty years after their crime against Christ,—during which time many of the apostles and disciples, and James himself the first bishop there, the one who is called the brother of the Lord, were still alive, and dwelling in Jerusalem itself, remained the surest bulwark of the place. Divine Providence thus still proved itself long-suffering toward them in order to see whether by repentance for what they had done they might obtain pardon and salvation; and in addition to such long-suffering, Providence also furnished wonderful signs of the things which were about to happen to them if they did not repent.

Since these matters have been thought worthy of mention by the historian already cited, we cannot do better than to recount them for the benefit of the readers of this work.

Book III. Chapter VIII.—The Signs which preceded the War.

Taking, then, the work of this author, read what he records in the sixth book of his History. His words are as follows: “Thus were the miserable people won over at this time by the impostors and false prophets; but they did not heed nor give credit to the visions and signs that foretold the approaching desolation. On the contrary, as if struck by lightning, and as if possessing neither eyes nor understanding, they slighted the proclamations of God.

At one time a star, in form like a sword, stood over the city, and a comet, which lasted for a whole year; and again before the revolt and before the disturbances that led to the war, when the people were gathered for the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth of the month Xanthicus, at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone about the altar and the temple that it seemed to be bright day; and this continued for half an hour. This seemed to the unskillful a good sign, but was interpreted by the sacred scribes as portending those events which very soon took place.

And at the same feast a cow, led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple.

And the eastern gate of the inner temple, which was of bronze and very massive, and which at evening was closed with difficulty by twenty men, and rested upon iron-bound beams, and had bars sunk deep in the ground, was seen at the sixth hour of the night to open of itself.

And not many days after the feast, on the twenty-first of the month Artemisium, a certain marvelous vision was seen which passes belief. The prodigy might seem fabulous were it not related by those who saw it, and were not the calamities which followed deserving of such signs. For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities.

pilgrim · July 31, 2019, 1:30pm

Yes.
I’m still waiting for any evidence that the Church Fathers acknowledged that the parousia had taken place. I have already given you plenty of evidence that they still awaited the parousia (but you totally ignored that last week).
Thanks for confirming my point.
Oh, and BTW

So there are more? Lets see them, I’m interested.

maintenanceman · July 31, 2019, 10:55pm

You can choose not to believe the obvious, but the fallout is catastrophic, most of the gospel is filled with 'soon will happen vocabulary ’ and unfortunately the soon to happen has never happened from the evangelical view point. The idea that the parosia has not happened from the evangelical perspective is both sad and unfortunate, for most of Christianity today could be living in a mindset that God has indeed done what he both said he would do and and has accomplished through His son Christ. There is a unfortunate schism between evangelicals looking forward to a coming and the actual gospel text.

DaveB2.0 · July 31, 2019, 11:15pm

That is simply not true.

maintenanceman · July 31, 2019, 11:44pm

No, it is true. your view is simply a view. You continue to contend that the evangelical mindset of a yet coming Christ is totally true, when much factual evidence has been given that the parousia has indeed taken place. Yes you have numbers on your side but it is in forums like this that truth starts to be put forth.

Good luck…