The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Hour We Least Expected

Yes I know the range of meaning there, and that’s a good point–an excellent word-study exercise is to use a concordance to try reading all occurrences of {sozo} and its cognates as “healed” and “delivered” (I seem to recall it has a couple more interesting connotations, too)–but I asked because the authors seem very gung-ho about there being no role at all for faith.

That being said, whether it’s “saved” or “healed” or “delivered”, I’m less interested in being sozo’d from punishment, wrath, hell, etc., then in being sozo’d from my sins. Which was why Jesus was named Yeshua (or Yehoshua) at all. :slight_smile: I’d rather not get rid of that “baggage”.

Yeaaahhhhh… when I hear or read people saying that sort of thing, while in the process of not only trying to explain it decisively in detail but also denigrating other people for getting it wrong, then my ESP (excre-sensory perception) starts to ping.

http://www.wargamer.com/forums/smiley/intrepidphasers.gif http://www.wargamer.com/forums/smiley/picard-facepalm.jpg

I’m trying not to feel too annoyed about this. They’re clearly excited, and on some right tracks.

Thanks for the reviewing so far; keep it up!

I am hoping to have the review of chapter three up this week, it has been a busy week so far. At this point, I’m left wondering how they fit things like Ephesians 5:6 into their view. I’m unsure of the Greek for “comes” there, but the English translation sure makes it sound like wrath still comes on “the sons of the disobedience”.

It’s {erchetai}, intransigent verb Present tense third person singular, matching up grammatically with {hê orgê} “the wrath”.

“For because of these things the wrath/indigntation of the-God is coming on the sons of the unpersuadeableness.”

That’s what I thought. So my question stands, then…

The bottom line of the whole thing seems to be that since Christ has died as a substitute for every person, then every one will be saved unconditionally. Nothing is required of them.

That’s Universalism isn’t it? Universalism as the Unitarian-Unversalist Church teaches it — not Evangelical Universalism. Everyone will automatically be saved, since Jesus died for the salvation of the world!

This is the very reason I don’t identify myself as a universalist, though I believe in the eventual universal reconciliation of all people to God as well as the salvation of all.

Well, yes and no. Unitarian Universalism teaches that there are any number of paths to God, not just that everyone will be saved. The big bottom-line distinction between Christian Universalism and other varieties is that Jesus is the only way, because he represented every person at the cross and resurrection. There are of course many flavors of Christian Universalism. My purpose in doing this review is to show the reasoning behind how these authors arrived at their particular flavor of Christian Universalism; which is still Christocentric, unlike UU.

:laughing:
i guess it’s good to know how to ride a bike before you tackle an ATV though :laughing:

Jason, loved the Enterprise emote :laughing:

Paidion…that’s a good point. personally i feel that everything is done by Christ, and thus we are GOING to be reconciled one day (by hook or by crook). i do believe there is some aspect of choice, even if it’s us realising the only real, sane choice is reconciliation with God and each other (survival instincts tend to kick in at a certain point, despite ourselves, afterall).
so i guess i can sympathise with the Unitarian Universalist church’s point of view here, even if i think it’s not quite right (though i confess i can’t totally say i know how this works…might be different for everyone)

True, there are ultra-universalists who are still Christian universalists: all are saved from sin through Christ alone, with repentance following salvation not preceding it, therefore no punishment for impenitent sin (leading to repentance) coming to anyone at all anymore. The authors look to be going that route, and quite a few forum members would agree with them.

The UUs aren’t even really “unitarian” anymore–we have a few solidly dogmatic unitarian Christians on the forum, and they’re nothing like the UUs.

Here we go: Chapter 3…

Chapter 3: Is it your choice?
In this chapter, the authors hope to address the topic title for the chapter, namely; According to the CAM, our eternal destiny is dependent both on belief and on making a conscious choice to “make” Jesus our Lord and savior. In this chapter, the authors want to contend that it isn’t our choice to make Jesus Lord, because He is that already, and that we don’t choose to make Jesus our savior, because he is already the savior of the whole world by no one’s choice but his. He chooses (chose) us, not the other way around. So they ask the initial exploratory questions; “Do we pick him, or does he pick us? If it’s our choice, how do we make it? What do we need to do to prove that we have made the choice? If he picks us, then does he pick all of us, part of us, or none of us?”
The authors then outline the theory of the CAM; essentially that we must choose our final destination, that God will not force His love on us, but it is rather up to us to “accept” His love for us and prove our acceptance by loving Him back. If we do not make the choice to make Jesus our personal Lord and Savior, then by default we have made “Hell” our home for eternity. They re-interpret this idea in the commonly heard terms that ‘God wants us to live in heaven with him forever, but sin is not allowed in heaven. So, if we don’t accept Jesus’ sacrifice and let him wash our guilt away, then we’ve chosen the alternative by default’. They cite commonly used bible passages to support this idea, such as John 14:6 and 3:3. Then here they ask; is Jesus saying that we have a choice to make here, or is he saying something else?
The authors lay out the following scenario for us:
Ask any CAM leader what you must do to get to Heaven, and most likely they will tell you that you must believe in Jesus. Then, ask them what happens to babies when they die. (They will most likely pull out “the age of accountability”). Then, ask them what happens to people that have never heard of Jesus. (They will most likely tell you it wouldn’t be fair for them to be held accountable because of their ignorance). Then, ask them what happens to the handicapped unable to make the decision, and you will get a similar answer.
The authors then ask an interesting question: If most people reject Christ when given the opportunity to do so, why are we telling everyone about Him? And why are we allowing our children to grow up? If most adults are going to Hell once they find out about Jesus, then wouldn’t we be doing them an eternal favor by keeping them unaccountable? The authors then say, “the truth is simple…Jesus’ mission was to save the world. The good news is that he pulled it off without a hitch and without our help. He is the Truth, and as we’ve stated before, Truth is no less true due to lack of supporters".
So now let’s see how well they do supporting this in the rest of the chapter.

In the next bit, they go through the typical Romans Road presentation to demonstrate where the mainstream get their idea that we have a choice to make: For the sake of brevity, I’m just going to give the scripture passage and their brief assessment of the CAM understanding of what action must be taken in response to each.
Rom. 3:23, Admit you’re a sinner. Rom 6:23a, Understand you deserve death for your sin (and here they mean spiritual death that alienates us from God forever) 6:23b, Ask God to forgive and save you, you must receive the gift, even though it’s free. Rom. 5:8, Give your life to God; His love poured out in Jesus on the cross is your only hope to have forgiveness and change. His love bought you out of being a slave to sin, his love is what saves you. Rom. 10:13, Call out to God in the name of Jesus. Rom 10: 9,10; If you know God is knocking on the door of your heart, ask him to come in.
Now, they want to show you their new understanding of these Romans passages, but they want us to consider a few points of logic first. The first question asked is; Why doesn’t Paul clearly spell out this plan in Romans? If this is God’s perfect plan for our salvation, why did He prompt Paul to write so much “filler” in his letters? They want to point out here that we cannot find any single place in scripture where this plan (as expressed by the CAM) is clearly spelled out.
So first, they point out that Romans 3 shouldn’t be read without the knowledge of the first two chapters subjects clearly in mind. Their summary is that chapter one of Romans is addressed to people who are practicing evil things, in spite of their knowledge that these things are wrong. In chapter 2, Paul chews out the people he’s writing to, because they’re Jews and should really know better. He asks them how they expect to escape God’s judgment when they’re just as guilty. Chapter 3 is Paul’s continued discussion of righteousness through obedience to the Law, and concludes we are all guilty in vs. 10-18. So, their synopsis is: Chapter 1, Lawbreakers; Chapter 2, Pretenders (only acting like they’re keeping the law); Chapter 3, the Law is impossible to be used as a means of justification. The law was used to put us all in the same position; guilty.
Now, they give what they call Paul’s “big but”; Rom. 3:21-22. Their discussion of this indicates that this new righteousness comes not through compliance with the law, but through the faith of Jesus Christ, given to ALL and experienced by ALL who believe, (for there is no difference). So, they ask; no difference in what, exactly? Well, they say if you read it carefully, you will see that two groups are being compared; All, and All who believe. Many say this verse says you must believe to qualify, but they say if you read this closely, you will see that Paul is not saying a new way to become righteous has been revealed, but rather the righteousness itself has been revealed. Taking us back to verse 20, they point out that the old covenant or the law revealed sin. Sin was already in place, but revealed by law. Likewise, the righteousness was also always here, but was not revealed until Jesus spelled out the terms of the New Covenant by taking the blame and dying in our place. Here, 2 Tim. 1:9-10 is cited, and from this the authors point out that Paul says here that this grace (the new righteousness) was given to us before time began, but was not revealed until Jesus defeated death and brought life and immortality to light through his good work.
So now, they take us back to Romans 3: 21-26 and say that what Paul is saying here is that whether you are a Jew, Greek, believer or doubter, there is no difference, because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Then we’re instructed to look at the next segment, which says that ALL have sinned AND are being justified freely by His grace. The same all that sinned is also justified freely, because of Christ’s death and resurrection. They point out that the point of this is not to point out that we’re all sinners, but that we are all equal and now justified. Now continuing with the sentence, they point out that if we read closely, we see that God was the one who gave Jesus the instruction to do this and be the propitiation, so God did this through faith in Jesus’ blood…so whose faith is this sentence referring to, they ask? They then point out that Paul is not saying that we have to have faith in His blood. “Not one time in this passage does he mention that you must have faith to receive it. There are instances where Paul mentions our faith, but it is for our own mental benefit to believe, not to qualify us for the prize of eternal life. Jesus alone, without our help and without our faith, qualified us.” The author states here that it is trust in Him that gives peace that passes understanding, but many trust instead in their ability to make a wise decision, thinking that is trusting in Jesus. Then, through the end of verse 26, the authors want to point out that the “declaring of righteousness through the passing by of sins”, etc. Is Paul saying that Jesus declared His righteousness by the passing of the sins that took place before, meaning that; because God knew ahead of time what he was going to do through Jesus, he didn’t punish anyone that died before the coming of the Lord (in Sheol, presumably), so that Jesus could take upon himself the “punishment” for all sins committed, and not just those before the cross, but after too. So, God was displaying His righteousness and justice at this time by forgiving those who were a product of the faith that God and Jesus (or Father and Son) shared and used to accomplish the work of the cross. Moving into verses 27-28, they question why Paul would even bother mentioning this if they were wrong about their theory; stating that Christians boast all the time about how superior they are because they were “smart enough to accept Jesus”, and that if it really is our choice, then boasting is not excluded because some would then clearly be in better standing with God than others. So their conclusion here is that none qualify on their own, yet all are included in the righteousness now revealed in Christ.

To be continued…

I met one of the authors (who lives about 3 hours north of Nashville) at the screening last night. He’s a nice guy, and obviously very motivated and excited about what he’s doing.

He and/or his brother have read some of the comments here on this thread and were naturally discouraged by them. If you’re still checking in guys: try not to be too discouraged. Our main criticisms are only that you’re using scriptures out of context to try to make your point; this could theoretically be fixed in several ways.

Mel and Cindy actually like your book. :slight_smile: They just want you to do a more accurate job supporting your argument. That isn’t only important for your sakes, but for our sake, too, as some people may read your book and come away thinking “oh, so universalists play with the scriptures that loosely, huh?”–and never bother looking any further.

And it isn’t only important for our sake, but for your readers’ sakes, too, if what you’re arguing is true: they deserve to have the best argument possible to help them. :slight_smile:

There are quite a few Christian ultra-universalists here on the forum (I mean ones who don’t believe there is any punishment or wrath coming from God now), including some who have been working on these things for a long time and know more details. I strongly recommend using this and other forums as research inspiration, and holding off on your next revision of the book until you’ve tightened things up a lot more. (He told me they were going to revise pretty soon for the next micro-printing batch–they print a few hundred copies at a time.)

One very interesting thing I heard when I was talking to him, was that unlike practically every other ultra-u I’ve ever heard (and practically unlike every other eschatological preterist I’ve ever read or heard, whether universalistic or not), they don’t appeal to 70 CE and the fall of Jerusalem as part of prophecy fulfillment. It’s all fulfilled in Jesus one way or another. While I think this will make their argument harder in several ways, I do at least admire the better consistency–since I still have problems trying to understand why, if all God’s wrath was fulfilled by Jesus on the cross, there had to be more wrath 40 years later against Jerusalem. The authors don’t go that route. (This is much less of a problem for non-universalistic preterists, of course, since their soteriologies don’t usually involve God’s wrath being completely fulfilled already. But these authors avoid the conceptual problem by going the other direction.) I’ll be very curious what your report will be on how they proceed about that, Mel.

Thanks for those comments Jason; good points, I think you’re right on. I would say, more accurate and more thorough; The Essarys certainly raise some very good points, but this book (as it stands now) leaves too many gaping holes in the biblical defense for these points for the more astute reader. I would also add that a big problem for their approach for many is their strong penal sub. atonement stance. It actually kind of works (at least for purely sub. atonement) the way they present it; but because PSA has some serious problems in and of itself, it doesn’t help the overall approach of the book simply for that reason. They do start talking about when “the end” was in the next chapter, so that chapter review should have some relevant details on the preteristic eschatology angle they’re taking; although if I recall correctly, they don’t address the point of why more wrath was necessary in the fall of Jerusalem.

Anyway, the rest of the Chapter 3 summary:

In their subsequent stops on the Romans Road, the authors wish to point out more things to us. Using Rom. 6:23, 6:3-5 (and the entire chapter), Matt. 3:11, John 8:21-24, 12:38-40, Eph. 2:4-7 to show that we did not have any choice in the matter as to our lot, being dead in our sins, yet we were made alive with Jesus at his resurrection after being crucified with him (again, independently of any input from us). They also take us back to Romans 4:14-16 to remind us that the Law is not what makes us part of God’s family, as it only brings wrath; however, where there is no law there is no transgression. In Romans chapter 5, when Paul says we are justified by faith, he does not mean our own personal faith. God reconciled us and forgave us at the cross before we decided to love Him; in fact, when we hated him. He died for his enemies, forgiving them whether they asked for it or not. Here, the authors state that it is difficult to understand why God would let someone who spent their entire life hating him and doing evil have eternal life, but that’s His choice. He’s God and can forgive whomever he wants. As evidence of this, they point to Romans 9:15-26. The authors also point out Romans 5:12-15, and reasoning from this that the gift came in the same manner as the curse; through one man’s disobedience/ obedience, that when sin came it came to all, and when life came, it also came to all. They note that yes, the passage says “many”, but then point out that this term is used for both the recipients of sin and the gift, which we know to be ALL, and give the subsequent verses 16-18 as further evidence of this. They also point out here that Paul says that judgment came to all men, though we’ve been taught judgment is in the future. So, they ask, how can judgment come before judgment day? this is a question they want to attempt to answer in the next chapter. The point they want to make here is that Judgment day is in the past; the day of the crucifixion, when all were found to have sin, but grace abounded even more. Here they point to 2 Tim.1:8-10 as evidence. Their paraphrase of this: “God saved us and called us, not because we deserved it, but rather because he wanted to. He gave us grace in Christ before time began, but now revealed it by sending us Jesus who has given us the New Covenant to shed light on our new condition of life and immortality.” Sin was here before the old covenant revealed it, and their contention is that grace was always here too, but wasn’t revealed until the new covenant, which means that it was God’s intention from the beginning to forgive us all and let us all live with him forever.

So now they want to bring us to a sticking point they often run into with people when they discuss Rom. 10:9-10, 13: something they partly addressed in Chapter 2. They want us to understand that when these verses are read alone, it sounds like you have to take action in order to be saved (in the traditional sense). So, they take us back to the beginning of chapter 10 to show that in the beginning of the chapter, Paul says he wishes Israel to be saved, but they go on to explain that what he is saying he wants Israel to be saved from is the power of the Law in their heads, by understanding that they no longer have to worry about trying to establish their own righteousness; not that he wants them to be saved from “death or hell” which they have already been saved from.
Now, they want to show us some other passages that they feel indicate a choice was made for us. They ask, “why did Adam’s decision affect all, but Christ’s didn’t?” (according to the CAM). So, they point to Ephesians 1:3-11. It would be easy to say that this is only about believers, except that toward the end of this section, we have the famous “gather together in one ALL things in Christ…” section. They also point out here that God “made us accepted in the Beloved”, and asks the question, “How does one become accepted in any scenario? Who decides who is accepted in any situation? Is it the acceptor, or the accepted? It is up to me whether I accept you. You might want me to accept you, but that decision will always fall on the one who does the accepting.” The authors then say that they realize that the CAM says that God has laid out terms of His decision to accept us; and they admit that it is true that there are two covenants considered in deciding whether we are accepted, but number one is the Law, which we all failed miserably at keeping; and the second replaced the first, which accepts Jesus and his choice to make you right. Continuing on, they also point out from the passage that the dispensation of the fullness of times, when Paul is saying that God will gather together in one all things in Christ; Paul seems to be indicating here that he believes the fullness of the times was fulfilled by Christ’s work on the cross. Also, God works all things according to the counsel of His will, which means he makes at least some choices for you.
Now, the authors bring us to some other passages that they say indicate or give strong hints that choices were made for us. In John 3, they point out this interaction with Nicodemus and the language of being born again. Their point here is that the birth analogy was chosen carefully to illustrate that the change involved in being born again is not our choice. We had no say in our physical birth (it was the choice/ actions of your parents that brought this about); likewise, we have no control over being born again. Here, they also bring us back to the point they were trying to make back in chapter 2 from John 8:24; they want to point out that Jesus was referring to the time frame of when He was on the cross. He said that whoever didn’t believe when he left would die in their sins (which was apparently no one), but then in Eph. 2:4-6 Paul says that when we were dead in sins, God made us alive together with Christ, raising us up together, seating us together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. We rose from the dead when Jesus did (at least representatively; the authors later seem to indicate that our personal “physical” resurrection occurs at our death). God made the choice for us. It is not Jesus + your choice = the way, but Jesus = The Way.

The authors then have a little aside for us here, asking the question; “Does God hold us to a higher standard than He holds Himself to? According to the CAM, we must ask God to forgive us for our sins. At first this seems reasonable, but consider the flipside, they say. CAM leaders will tell you if asked what we are supposed to do when someone wrongs us that we are supposed to forgive everyone, no matter what they do to us. So, what if they don’t ask? Well, we are supposed to forgive them anyway. If this is true, why do some believe that God doesn’t forgive everyone, no matter what? It’s a two sided standard that doesn’t make sense. God wouldn’t ask you to do something that He is either incapable of or unwilling to do. While we were His enemies, He forgave us all the way to his own death. It is never the choice of the guilty to be forgiven. The one doing the forgiving has the power to decide who is forgiven and who is not. The CAM twists the logic of this to say that God, though He has the power to forgive all, has laid out ground rules, putting the ball in our court. The authors disagree, pointing to Matt. 5:43-48, instructing us to look closely at what is being said here: that we are to treat others with Love, regardless of their actions. Bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you. Love your enemies. Ask a CAM believer where one will spend eternity if they hate God. The CAM, they say, makes this hard to answer, though it is in their opinion very simple. If you hate God, he will return love. Curse God, and it will not faze Him because He loves you and only wants blessings for you. Even evil people can love those who love them back, but God is different, and asks us to follow suit. Jesus tells us to forgive everyone who sins against us, but God doesn’t do the same? Nonsense.

Well, they wouldn’t necessarily, since they don’t believe God’s wrath came on Jerusalem, only on Jesus. They’re different from every other preterist I currently know about (universalist or non-universalist), on this score.

Hmm. Well, in that case, I’d be interested in talking with them about what they think the destruction of Jerusalem was all about then…

True. It does seem at least a little wrathy, by Jesus’ own warnings in the Gospels. Which is why preterists (whether universalistic or not) focus so much on it. Very typical of behavior attributed to God in the OT, too.

I’m hoping to have the chapter 4 review up in the next couple of days. It has been a really busy week, so I’ve fallen a bit behind. I’m now reading through the appendices of “Dropping Hell and Embracing Grace”, which is another but in some ways better book along the same line. I plan to do a review of that book once I finish this one.

thanks for the continuing blow by blow review, Melchi!
gotta say, some very good points raised in that last bit. some of those points, like Romans 3:23-24, were things that niggled away at my previous belief in the CAM…
reading 21-22 in the YLT, as opposed to the bizarre NIV, really illustrates what they’re saying.

to the authors: if you’re reading, i’m sorry if anything i said lacked tact and discouraged you. this is really a kind audience here, and many of the denizens of this forum have years of study behind them…so take the criticisms and questions that arise as constructive.

not all of us here are what is called Ultra Universalists, some are what i’d call Pergatorial Universalists…but there’s some friendly discourse and debate from both angles. feel free to join in!

what you’ve found is truly exciting stuff…the knowledge of the salvation of all still staggers me with joy.

Finally, after 3 days in “server Sheol”…

Chapter 4: When is The End?

In Chapter 4, our dauntless authors the bros. Essary give us a quick overview of the territory covered so far. In chapters 2 and 3, they’ve discussed some fundamental beliefs of mainstream Christianity regarding the topics of belief in Jesus for personal salvation from the penalties of sin, and the idea of free will as it applies to your choice with respect to that choice being the deciding factor determining your “final destination” at death.
So now, they want to start tackling what they refer to as some “stacked” concepts within the CAM (Commonly Accepted Message), pointing out that one can’t simply say that everyone goes to heaven and that the Bible is your source of knowledge for that conclusion without dealing with other interrelated concepts; such as hell, end time prophecy, rapture, the Lake of Fire, Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy, and so on. So in this chapter and the two subsequent chapters (5 and 6), they will discuss what they believe to be the correct interpretation of the above concepts (and more).
Once again, this chapter’s lesson plan begins with a question: “Two thousand years of teaching can’t be wrong… Can it?” A question which should of course be very familiar to any universalist who’s been around the block a few times. They begin the chapter with this question however, for another reason; namely, they are very often accused of teaching something that goes against 2,000 years of teaching (imagine that). So why would God reveal something to them, that very few had seen yet? (relatively speaking, within the 2k year framework presumably) Well, they take comfort in the fact that they’ve discovered that they are not the only people to claim to have found a truth in Scripture previously hidden (let alone this one!). Then it is pointed out that, in fact, if you’re a part of any of the many protestant Christian churches/denominations, you can’t say that what you believe has even been taught for 2000 years. Here, the authors talk about the fact that a simple research study into the history of the church will reveal that our modern Christian beliefs are closer to 500 years old than 2000; the Catholic (of the Roman variety) Church having been the bastion of the mainstream view for most of that time up until approximately 500 years ago, when some upstart willing to be called crazy dared to question the status quo, launching the protestant reformation (which I personally think more or less amounted to the ‘Roman Catholic preservation and renaming of mostly the same stuff’ reformation, but still, point taken) and 5 bazillion denominations soon to follow. The authors also remind us that the world itself has changed a heck of a lot in the last couple millennia, spurring many changes that have taken place as a result of new knowledge coming to light, and influenced by those brave souls willing to stand up for the necessary change.
So, solving mysteries takes time, and they use the example of what happened on 9/11/2001, which is both a great example and one fraught with potential distraction from the point, depending on how one believes that event actually went down; but their point stands: people are still trying to figure out exactly what the heck happened that day (and some think they have). At any rate, it takes time and research to figure stuff out. So what exactly did happen when Jesus died and rose again should be getting clearer as time goes on, because that is how it works, we are assured.
Then they ask a good question: How do you know you have it (what you believe) all correct, now?
Well, one of the authors (Steve I presume) says he used to think he had all the answers. He knew what his church believed and he actually believed it even more than they did. (Hey, am I detecting an inadvertent reference to the apostle Paul here? Hmmm.) He says if you would have asked him then if he had the correct version of Christianity, he would have at least said we had 90% or more of the bible figured out (Insert self-deprecating laughter here). Today, will he tell you he’s right? No way, apparently. He will tell you he thinks he’s right; he’s brave enough to debate his newfound faith (clearly!) against what he used to believe, but he emphatically states that to say you’re right is to say you know it all and have nothing left to learn. He points out that only God is 100% right, and until we are like Him, we have to be willing to consider that we might be 100% wrong. So, he urges us to have an open mind.

The authors begin to switch gears here a bit and start talking about how the “soon coming end of the world” is something they’ve heard about their whole life, and that it is a subject of great interest, and not just for Christians (though we are probably the ones guilty of writing the largest wads of speculative drivel on it; based on dispensational futurism, but I digress). The authors point was put more kindly, saying that lots of material has been produced on it, but his point is the next question; well what does the Bible say about it? He means, what does the Bible really say about it… Well; if you ask someone who subscribes to the CAM view, they’ll most likely say something like ‘it’s coming very soon and that it’s going to be awful for anyone who doesn’t believe in Jesus; but for those who have been wise enough to choose Him as their personal Savior, it will be a great day in which we’ll get to go to our TBN- style paved golden street version of heaven complete with pearly gates displaying 777 heavenly way. (This last bit is my facetiousness coming through, not the authors).
So anyway, they’re going to be looking at some passages in this chapter commonly used to support such notions and see if they can suss out if there’s something to it, or if we’re actually dealing with more possible misinterpretations.

They want to begin the investigation of the CAM view of ‘the end’ by jumping right to what is often thought of in Christendom as the ending point of the story, the book of Revelation (or Revelations, as they refer to it in the book). The topic of this somewhat cryptic book is summarized for us as the author describing things he sees in a vision from God; which I think is a pretty fair assessment; but at any rate, when John gets to chapter 21, he is clearly seeing some awesome, dramatic stuff happening, including the passing of heaven and earth, a new heaven and earth forming, a city floating down from the sky to the earth; the new Jerusalem. He then hears a voice from heaven saying that everything is different now and there will be no more tears (presumably not due to Johnson and Johnson’s baby shampoo ubiquitously administered), no more death, no more pain (sweet!). One of the angels takes him in for a fly-by of the city for a closer view and he clearly has a vision of that same golden, jewel-encrusted TBN broadcast (Ok, I’ll stop now). Anyway, Steve(?) reiterates that this was what he saw in the passage the first time he heard this preached about. But, is that what this is really referring to? But wait, before they show you what they found out, they want to take us back to the beginning of Revelation for a moment; from the top: Rev. 1:1 Here, he recalls that when they first began to question the CAM, that Revelation was going to have to be a large part of what they had to tackle; he admits that this seemed daunting, but he didn’t want to just skip over the bits that seemed difficult.
So, reading as if for the first time; here is what the Essarys say they began to discover. They go through a few basics first: the definition of Revelation; ‘to reveal or disclose something that has not been realized’. So this book is the full disclosure of something about Jesus that we did not know before. The phrase “shortly take place” is noted to be usually believed to mean things that were to happen soon after the disclosure was written, or that when the events began, they would happen quickly. The authors note here that either seems possible, but they want us not to assume at this point. So the first piece of the puzzle that they want to point out answers the question, “when was this Revelation given?” the idea being that the answer to this question is a very large piece of the puzzle. The Essarys note that for quite awhile, Revelation “has been considered to be the account of how things will happen in the future when Jesus is finally ready to come back and finish things up”. They surmise that the reason we’ve believed that for so long, is because we’ve developed ideas about what the world will be like and look like once He has finished. But here’s the rub: the things we currently see with our eyes don’t match these visions we have in our heads, so we see things as unfinished because we’re not seeing what we expect to. The authors remind us here that many *still *do not believe Jesus to be the messiah because when he did come, he wasn’t what was expected. So, if they were wrong, then isn’t it possible that what we’re expecting could happen in a way we least expect? They point out also that we already believe it will happen in an hour we are not expecting, so how do we know we’ve got the “how” figured out? Then, we’re reminded that John doesn’t get the vision and write it down until years after Jesus has left earth, and that this contributes to the confusion, because in combination with the phrase “must shortly come to pass”, this leads us to believe that the events described in the vision will happen at some point after John has written the vision down. (Here is where I think their line of reasoning begins to neatly avoid the whole 70 AD debate). Anyway, what they’re hoping to clarify is that God gave this same disclosure to Jesus first, not John, and that the phrase “must shortly come to pass” is referring to the timing of the Revelation as given to Jesus rather than John. The authors want to clarify what they are questioning here, which is whether this vision “must shortly come to pass” at the point it was given to Jesus vs. “shortly” after it was given John to write down. (Interesting point, I’d never considered that before reading this book.) So, the authors instruct us to carefully note how Matt. 24 reads, and we’ll see that it is given to John last. The authors note here that they’ve heard CAM teachers say this before, but didn’t see the significance of it until now.

Continued in next post…

Chapter 4, continued…

At any rate, we’re directed now to Matt. 24 near the beginning, where the disciples are questioning Jesus as to when the end of the age will be, and what it will look like. Jesus answers these questions by describing some events that are also described in Revelation. They invite us here to compare Matt. 24: 29-30 with Rev. 6:12-13. Now, the authors admit they don’t know exactly when Jesus was given this knowledge, but he clearly knew what was to happen before he answered the disciples questions, but their guess as to when Jesus was given the full plan was somewhere around the time that his ministry began, following his baptism by John; perhaps during the 40 day wilderness event. So with this in mind, we’re instructed to read Rev. 1:1, and they point out that this is talking about Jesus being given the Revelation, so he could tell His servants (whom they identify as the disciples) the things which must shortly take place. Next, the authors point out that when we read Rev. 1 closely, we’ll see that John was “in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day”, by which was meant the day that ‘belonged to the Lord’, rather than a Sabbath day. Even so, the specific day of the vision was irrelevant, because he was taken in the spirit back to the Lord’s Day, and shown the disclosure. Their view of this is that John was given a “flashback” vision given to him to disclose the events that took place at the cross and resurrection.

Now we’re asked the question whether Revelation is literal or symbolic, and it’s pointed out that the standard CAM answer is that it is highly symbolic, but still contains passages meant to be taken literally. So they begin questioning this by directing us to the end of Rev. 1:1, pointing out in particular the word “signified” there as the Greek, semaino which means, ‘to make known by signs’ (and symbols), which they feel becomes very clear shortly as John begins transcribing what he sees in the vision being given to him. So, they point to some clear examples in Rev. 1:12-16 (Explained in vss. 19-20) and Rev. 12:1-4. Now at this point they ask, since the whole book is filled with obvious symbolism, how do we know which parts are to be taken literally? Next up is Rev. 21:1-4, the new heaven and earth, then vs. 9, where the holy city is described as the Lamb’s wife (sounds like a symbolic city to them), so it would seem that it is not a literal city, but rather a symbol for God’s people; we’ve been taught that the bride of Christ is a symbolic term for God’s people. So they ask, if it’s a literal city (as described), then is Jesus going to “marry” some golden streets? To show the other side of this coin, they point to Isaiah 52:1 where God is speaking to “Jerusalem”, where (though it is a real city) it is clear that the name of the city is being used to symbolically refer to its people. So the point they want to make here is that the New Jerusalem is symbolic of God’s people who have been made new, not a literal city. The authors then extrapolate this out, and say the *new heaven and earth as well *are symbolic of something made new because the old (order) has passed away. They ask the question, what is old that was used for order that has now been made new? And for the answer, they point us to Heb. 8:6-13 where the old covenant is referred to as having been replaced by the new one. The point they want to make here is that it’s a whole new world since Jesus died, was resurrected and we were given the new covenant; meaning (in their estimation) that the New Heaven, Earth, and City (New Jerusalem) are also symbolic of the New Covenant, which replaced the old one. In other words, everything was made new with the resurrection; reminding us again of the words of 2 Cor. 5:17. So has the law been fulfilled and removed, they ask? Some say it has, some cling to the law saying it is still fully in effect, and others just dismiss parts of it; but they want to point us to a clue in Matt. 5:18. Jesus says that nothing about the law is going to change until Heaven and Earth pass away, but the law DID change *when Jesus died *(The writer of Hebrews claimed the law was now obsolete). So the authors point out that when Jesus died everything died (symbolically) because he represented all of creation, and likewise when he rose again, everything was made new. Here we’re reminded of the words of Col. 1:15-20; if all things dwell in Him, then all things died when he did (see also 2 Cor. 5:14). Essentially, the upshot here is that because all things were fulfilled at the cross and resurrection, and Revelation was symbolic (as a retrospective vision) of the spiritual changes that happened in relation to those events, there is nothing left to be completed. It is (truly) finished.
The “end of the world” has already taken place, and so now, (the authors contend) there is no future “end” other than the personal end we each face when we die. The authors promise to talk more about what happens to us when we die in chapters 5 and 6, but they go on here to talk more about the Law to further demonstrate that it is now obsolete. The scriptures they reference are as follows: John 1:1-5,14 and 5:37-47 2 Cor. 3:1-18, Rom. 3:19,20 Jer. 31:31-34 Steve tells a little story here that happened regarding the Jeremiah passage when he was still studying this out. He says: “When I first read this passage to the pastor of the church I was attending when I first began this journey, he told me that this particular covenant had not been fulfilled yet”…due to “the wording found in Rev. 21-3” Now Steve admits that the Rev. Passage does match the wording found in Jer. 31:33, but that “the problem was that he (the pastor) believed the events of Revelation to be future and because of its obvious parallel with Jeremiah, it could not have already happened. “He then cornered me and asked if I really believed that this had been accomplished.” Apparently, Steve told him that at that point he couldn’t be certain, but the writer of Hebrews certainly seemed to think it had been (Hebrews 8:1-13) He points out that at the end of this passage there are no stipulations on this, it simply states that when the new covenant comes, it will be for everyone and include everyone (assuming everyone is identified as Israel and Judah, I guess; he doesn’t address this point).

The authors end the chapter with discussion of some other passages that appear to describe the end as having already been accomplished: Heb. 9:24-28, 1 Tim. 1:8-10, Rom. 5:12-14 (18), and also make a point about why most people cannot believe that God’s kingdom has already been established; Because they are expecting a physical kingdom centered around the New Jerusalem (sound familiar?) Because we can’t see it with our eyes, we can’t accept that it is here already; but Jesus warned about this in Luke 17:20-21 (the kingdom of God does not come with “observation”, meaning ocular evidence). We will never “see” the kingdom, because it is among us, and the New Jerusalem is us; God’s people…

So honestly, I think their biggest problem here is going to be answering one fairly straightforward question. If absolutely everything has been fulfilled, and John’s vision was only about what happened spiritually at the cross and resurrection, then why do we still have death and pain? I still see tears God has not yet wiped away (Rev.21) I think they may have problems explaining how God is already all in all, Jesus already having put everything under his feet and having turned over the kingdom, etc. Also, I think this approach (so far) appears to ignore much of the already/ not yet dynamic present in Hebrews, passages of which they use so heavily to defend this position; but who knows, maybe I’ll end up answering my own questions about this in the next chapter. I’m sure a few of you may have spotted some other problems; feel free to point them out.

Next up; Chapter 5: Is Jesus Coming Back? (a.k.a. Pantelism with a twist of lime :wink: )

Sorry to overwhelm those of you following this with another chapter so soon; with the site down-time I ended up having more time to work on chapter 5 before I had the chance to post Chapter 4. I also apologize for the length of this one. Anyway, here it is:

Chapter 5: Is Jesus coming back?
The introduction to chapter 5 begins with a summary statement of the previous chapter’s findings: namely, “that the end of the world" as described in Scripture is “actually a symbolic reference to the end of the Old Covenant, or the Law. It was the end of the world, because it was the end of the way the world operated at that time. The old order of things passed away and the new order began with the resurrection of Jesus.”

Now, they want to begin dealing with some of the other interlocking ideas and doctrinal beliefs; such as the second coming of Christ, judgment day, the rapture, the resurrection of the dead, separation of sheep and goats, 70 weeks of Daniel, and Jesus’ statements in Matt. 24 and Luke 17. In this chapter, the authors want to cover each of these and demonstrate how they fit into their new paradigm. Before they jump into the second coming, the authors (as an aside) want to point out a few things in response to what one of their critics said in an early review of the book pre-release: some common doctrines not found in the Bible. They ask, where might the following familiar phrases appear in scripture: The age of accountability? The sinners prayer? Rapture? Where does the Bible say I must make Jesus my personal Lord and Savior?

So, the phrase “second coming” is nowhere to be found in scripture either, which is rather odd since it is one of the most talked about events in the Christian world. Here, the authors summarize at the beginning by saying that some of the things that “scholars” believe will happen at the “second coming” have already happened. Then they move on to discuss the “sub-events” supposedly coinciding with the second coming. The first up is Judgment Day, so for a start they point us back to Rom. 5:18 where Paul is saying that all of mankind was judged and condemned as a result of the actions of Adam, and that coincidentally, Paul is also suggesting that the choice of Jesus has reversed this effect on us. We’re then pointed to John 5:10-29 for what Jesus said about judgment day. The authors’ summary of this passage is that Jesus says the Father has given him the job of judging the world, and then says that if anyone believes, they will not come into judgment; but they remind us from chapter 2 of the book that they’ve already pointed out that no one believed. Then Jesus says he is going to judge us by our works. The point they want to make here is that Jesus said that hour was coming “very soon”, which in their estimation was at the crucifixion, not 2000 plus years later. For further evidence of this, we are pointed to John 12:31-33, where Jesus says,”Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. This He said, signifying by what death He would die.” So, the reasoning here is that Jesus is saying the time for judgment is NOW (which was then). He also says that “if” He is lifted up, He will draw ALL to himself. Verse 33 is talking about His death, so that is an indication to the author that the time for the judgment was at the cross. The scripture also says that when Jesus was on the cross, the sins of the entire world were placed on Him. Jesus also says in John 5 that at the time for judgment, He was going to judge us according to the Law. Sin/evil would be punished, and good will be rewarded. So, if Jesus took the sins of the world on himself (or they were placed on him by the Father, more accurately) and the judgment was determined at that moment, then Jesus would receive the judgment for everyone’s sins, while everyone else would be set free. We’re now pointed to Hebrews 2:9, and they note that “It doesn’t make any sense that Jesus would ‘pay’ for the sins of the world before the world was judged. Everyone knows that a sentence is not given until the verdict is read.”

Next on the chopping block is The Rapture. The text most commonly used to support the rapture doctrine is 1 Thess 4:13-18. In exploring this passage, we’re instructed to start with the subject by re-reading vs. 13. Steve’s interpretations: “Let me tell you about what happens to people when they die so you don’t worry like those who don’t have this information and therefore don’t have the hope that you do.” Verse 14: “Because we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also then believe that God also brought with Jesus those who were already dead.” Vs. 15: “We quote the Word when we say that we who were still alive when Jesus came are not going to go to be with Him before those who were already dead before He came.” Vs. 16: He comments here that many scholars will tell you that because it says “shall descend” here, it makes this a future event. The authors agree, but state that the problem with their theory on this is that they’ve overlooked the fact that Paul was interpreting an older scripture here when he wrote this, meaning that it was still future when the scripture quoted in this passage was written . Steve’s paraphrase: “The Word said that Jesus Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trump of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.” He points out here that some will say, but “it says only those in Christ, meaning only those who accepted Him. Ah, but…we are talking about those who were dead before Christ ever came to earth, and who therefore never had a chance to “accept or reject Him”. Vs. 17: “Then we who are still alive when this happens shall be caught up together with them in the clouds (when we die), to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord." Steve notes here that he adds the words “when we die” because that is the subject of the paragraph. “Paul is simply explaining how death works now that the Lord has come and finished His work”. Steve then explains here that “before Jesus came, those who ‘fell asleep’ went to a place called ‘shehole’ (sic)to await the Judgment Day, when their final destination would be determined.”

The authors promise to explore this a bit more in the next chapter, but for now they go into an aside about the “twinkling of an eye”, where most CAM members think “that one day in the future, Jesus is going to swing by and pick them up and leave the rest of the world in utter chaos.” And they point to another passage the CAM seems to get this idea from: 1 Cor. 15: 51-52. But one of the flaws with the idea is the CAM folks have failed to realize all of mankind did change in the twinkling of an eye. As evidence, the authors direct our attention to what happened to the veil in the temple when Jesus died in Matt. 27:51. The authors talk about the significance of the veil: the barrier protecting the priests from the power of God coming from the ark, and if they went in to that room without proper preparation, they would die. “So why did they not die when the curtain ripped, exposing them to the ark?” Answer: because when Jesus died, all of mankind was changed; the ark didn’t have power over us anymore” (symbolic of the old covenant contained inside). There is a new covenant now, and it’s contained inside of us.
So the authors’ conclusion here is that 1 Cor. 15: (51-52) is Paul merely discussing death and what happens when we die. “Some CAM members will tell you that the dead have not risen yet and are still asleep waiting for judgment day”, but we’re pointed to what Jesus says in John 5:25, That “the hour is coming and now is that the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.” And here we’re also asked, what better time for the dead to hear His voice than when He visits Sheol after the crucifixion? Again, the point is made that “when Jesus died, we were ALL found guilty, but rather than face eternal death, He took our place and tasted death for all. When He rose again, ALL who were dead rose also and went to be with Him forever.” Next, the authors point us to 1 Cor. 15: 12-20 for more evidence: They carefully note here what the writer says; “Christ has risen from the dead and has become the firstfruit of those who slept (past tense).

continued…