The idea that we all deserve hell


#310

I’m not seeing what response you look forward to. After my words you cited, I again conclude that Jesus teaches us to follow his approach to the law. And I don’t see your observations offers any challenge to that. My papers on this actually also cite John 5:17 as support that we are to imitate Jesus in his imitation of his Father’s ways. I don’t see him challenge the idea that God rests on the Sabbath, and then say this justification of meeting needs on the Sabbath is irrelevant to those who follow him (or only applies to him and God). Indeed, I assume it was Jesus’ advocacy of not classically observing the Sabbath that led to your observation that “I don’t see the Sabbath command repeated” (and also to Paul’s observation that some believers esteemed one day as special, but others saw no need for that).

I.e. I think the genius behind the apostles’ conclusion that we are not under the law was the pioneer of our faith, Jesus himself.


#311

Bob, I look forward to reading your paper on how Jesus used OT verses during his ministry.


#312

Justin Martyr spent days discussing OT scripture with a group of Jews (Trypho was the chief spokesman of the Jews) trying to show that those scriptures spoke of Jesus. I think I posted the part of his dialogue with Trypho in another thread, but perhaps it bears repeating since the Sabbath question came up. The headings are mine:

Justin Martyr’s Explanation of the Sabbath to the Jews (Justin lived from 110 – 165 A.D.)

Righteous Men of Old Kept No Sabbaths

Nature Does Not Observe Sabbath Days

.

God Himself Does Not Observe the Sabbath Day

The True Israelites Are Those Who Come to God Through Christ

We Are Now Required To Keep Sabbath Daily By Resting From Sin and Working Righteousness


#313

That was very interesting.


#314

Thanks qaz. I’ve now posted it as “Jesus Most Vital Ideas.” It must be a theme of mine since some of my earlier papers also embellish on this: Reading the Bible Like Jesus Did, How Jesus Changes Some Traditional Beliefs, and Is All Scripture Equally Valid for Us?


#315

I was thinking of a hypothetical scenario. And it’s probably one, that makes Muslims happy. Suppose Christ did lead some military fights (i.e. he grew up in a military career, instead of learning the carpenter trade), like Mohammad did. But he was also, a man of peace. And tried to resolve things peacefully - wherever possible. But while he led some military battles, he didn’t resist his capture and crucifixion. Would that change:

How you view the Old Testament and the resulting violence?
How you view the New Testament?
How we, as Christians, should act in the world?


#316

I understand why you feel that way, and it is not a point I want to go to far in arguing the point, and we can look at the things that are coming in the ages as series of great events and travails, or a gradual churning of the soil and planting of seed. Eventually we know God will pour out His spirit on all flesh and the glory of the Lord will cover the earth as the water covers the sea. Eventually there will be a new heaven and a new earth in which dwells righteousness, and the pathway to that point in time is obscure, but certainly the scriptures prophecy in many places that there will be enlightenment coming to all men, and that enlightenment will be the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ,

And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples,
Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death for all time,
And the Lord God will wipe tears away from all faces,
And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth;
For the Lord has spoken.
9 And it will be said in that day,
“Behold, this is our God for whom we have waited that He might save us.
This is the Lord for whom we have waited;
Let us rejoice and be glad in His salvation.” Is 25

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.2 Cor 4

But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elementary principles will be dissolved with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be exposed.

11 Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved by intense fire, and the elemenary principles will melt with intense heat! 13 So according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. 3 Pet 3

18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Romans 8


#317

The different morality that apllies to us, as disciples of Jesus Christ, is that we do what we do becuase we love God, and love our neighbor. We are not fearing the commandment. We are in the perfect law of liberty, in that we want to please Him and help others because Christ is in us, and has taken possesion of our hearts.

That is the differnece, imo, between the OT and the NT. A better motivation, a better Spirit. A New and Living Way.


#318

Bob Wilson said:

Richard Beck writes:

Interesting


#319

Well the command has always been… “Six days shall ye work…” — how many so-called ‘Sabbath keepers’ break this straight off in having 2 day weekends!? :sunglasses:


#320

I don’t know any* Sabbath keepers *that have a two day Sabbath here in America… Though they (the Sabbath keepers) have to deal with the Sunday traditions of our culture. But I would ask how that would be breaking the command. One can work while the community is at rest aye?


#321

Jesus ends the “sermon” * with these important words:

Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it. (Matt 7:24-27 ESV)

Jesus said “EVERYONE” (not just His disciples whom He was addressing). That “EVERYONE” includes you and me.

Paul’s reference to the law of Christ also makes clear that he himself was under the law of Christ, which he equates with “the law of God” while calling the Mosaic law simply “the law.” Also, in his letter to the Galatians, he was urging the Galatian Christians to fulfill the law of Christ.

1 Corinthians 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.
Galatians 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

It was Christ in giving His law, who expressed the true law of God, and the apostle John wrote that if we truly love God we will keep His commandments and that to do so is not burdensome.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

Jesus Himself said:
(Matthew 11: 29,30) Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

So what’s the problem in obeying Jesus’ instructions as He expressed them in “the Sermon on the Mount”?*


#322

I share Paidion’s perception that we are under the law of Christ rather than the law of Moses, and that Beck is thus correct that the Sermon on the Mount should guide our obedience.


#323

I was being cheekily factious… so much is made (by some) of the unrighteousness of failing to observe the Sabbath (Saturday) but in fact ignore the first part of the command re working six days. There is no such thing as a “two day Sabbath” that I’m aware of anywhere. Not only that but we pretty much live in a 24/7 world these days… I say they should fulfil the FULL commandment and work a whole SIX days! :laughing:


#324

I share Paidion’s perception that we are under the law of Christ rather than the law of Moses, and that Beck is thus correct that the Sermon on the Mount should guide our obedience.

I couldn’t even imagine why a follower of Jesus would think we are under the Law of Moses? But it’s not just the Sermon on the Mount that guides us between Jesus and the Apostles there are over 50 commands/principals. Not for salvation but as the fruit of the Spirit. BTW the “Law of Christ” has several other names like “The Royal Law”, “The Law of God” and several others.


#325

Steve, I agree that the Sermon on the Mount is not the only part of the New Testament that should guide our obedience.


#326

The sermon on the mount (SotM) appears to me quite complex and not so obviously a direct set of commandments for Christians. It was given pre-resurrection and pre-Pentecost for a start. And what about the ‘plain’ variation in Luke?

For those who think the SotM is the ‘key’, what makes you think so more than, say, the Pauline epistles, or John, etc?


#327

Yes; because it came directly from Christ.


#328

Which leads to three points:

  1. it didn’t come directly from Christ - it came via the author of Matthew.
  2. why is the SotM held as more an interpretive key than all other of the red words?
  3. why does the Christ words matter more than the apostolic words if both are inspired by God?

#329

Pog, If authority just lies for us in the total Biblical document, then perhaps none of it would matter more to us that another part and (we may convince our self that we have escaped subjectivism). If on the other hand, we judge Biblical content through other filters, including what seems written on our hearts, and what the Spirit seems to confirm to us, then frankly, Christ may especially matter to us because his words seem to have an especially brilliant ring of truth.