I’m sorry that I’m not able to follow the logic of your notes. Perhaps you could try to explain them in standard paragraphs and I might have a shot of understanding it. At this point, I don’t understand it enough to say that I agree or disagree with it.
In order to begin to understand what you wrote above, I need to ask you a question. Do you believe that “the devil and his angels” in Matthew 15:41 are the same as “the dragon and his angels” in Revelation 12:7?
Update
Here are some verses in NASB about the judgment of the devil:
*[14] The LORD God said to the serpent,
“Because you have done this,
Cursed are you more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you will go,
And dust you will eat
All the days of your life;
[15] And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”
(Genesis 3:14-15)
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the (AO)eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; (Matthew 25:41)
and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. (John 16:11)
The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. (Romans 16:20)
and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. (1 Timothy 3:6)
And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. (Revelation 12:9)
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)*
As I stated earlier, it makes no difference to me in we switch “Satan” with “the satan”. And perhaps you’ll dispute that some or none of these verses teach about the leader of evil spiritual verses.
Your experiences in this area are very interesting, but the experience of Christ ( as recorded in the New Testament ) is of at least as much interest to anyone who accepts the Bible as a revelation from God.
May I again point out that Christ encountered demons who were able to effect the external environment?
( They could enter a nearby herd of swine at the exact moment they were cast out of human hosts, and the shock could cause the animals to rush off a cliff. )
That would be a little hard to explain if what Jesus encountered was nothing more than mental illness, would it not?
And please remember that the contemporary culture included people ( such as the Sadducees, the Epicureans, and the Stoics ) who questioned the supernatural.
So why would God want His revelation ( even a largely allegorical revelation ) to pepetuate false beliefs ( by recording facturally incorrect data that would support mere superstition for generations )?
And you still don’t think it’s possible that you’re approaching this subject from a philosophically biased point of view?
Then all the anguish and suffering of this one universe, the devil that you suggest God created ( whether personal or impersonal ), the adversarial function you suggest he was created to perform, the Law that defines sin, the Grace that forgives sin, Calvary, and judgment are all ultimately unnecessary.
This is entirely inconsistent with saying that there’s a plan and purpose for this universe, or that “a specific experience” ( i.e. “the knowledge of good and evil”? ) is necessary to achieve “a specific outcome” ( i.e. the creature’s highest good, the reconciliation of all, or whatever you believe that “specific outcome” to be.)
How can you have any confidence in the Love of a God who would unnecessarily will the existence of sin, suffering, evil, temptation, and the devil?
Until they’re able to faithfully trust someone who’s wiser than they are?
Yes!
That’s part of the loving purpose of the God revealed in scripture (and a necessary part of the learning process of personal, finite, self-aware creatures.)
As far as the scriptural evidence that Satan is a spiritual being who fell from a higher dimension ( or “raised up” condition ), let’s recap here
Don’t apologize, I know my post was ambiguous. I try to read without presuppositions and so was throwing out the idea that in some cases “the adversary/slanderer and his messengers” is speaking of men (that’s why I posted the definition) and that the verse isn’t changing subjects when it says that.
I agree that “satan” (Matthew 16:23, Mark 8:33) and “devil” (John 6:70) occasionally refer to a human, but “satan” and “devil” typically refer to the leader of evil spiritual forces. And I recall that the word for “angel” in the Old Testament sometimes refers to a human. Regardless, there are various examples of the serpent/satan/devil referring to the leader of evil spiritual forces facing judgment (Genesis 3:14-15, Matthew 25:41, John 16:11, Timothy 3:6, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 20:10). And unless Christian orthodoxy is wrong about all of these examples referring to the leader of evil spiritual forces facing judgment, then I’ll need for you to explain to me why the devil faces judgment if I’m going to consider your view as a viable option of biblical doctrine.
Personal experience does count a lot. That’s where some see the bible as crucial because you (theoretically) can go there and sort out what’s what and can have some stable reference to compare experiences to.
I am a ‘Thomas’ too Jeff, I had to have proof initially and after having seen I believed (making me less blessed that some ) but that’s the price you pay for hardheadedness. With the experiences of others I am equally skeptical and MUST SEE SOME FRUIT and tangible results before I believe, and really - I don’t think that is a shortcoming.
I have a friend with whom Jesus talks 24/7 and I don’t believe a word of it. If Jesus appears on 1.1.11 - then I will admit it WAS Jesus speaking as they claim. Or if Obama starts doing miraculous antichristic signs and wonders .
That’s why I would LOVE to hear about some results, real world results, confirming that demons are causing deafness and infirmities etc. It seems that if any believer is not actively casting out demons that something is very very wrong. So, Michael, James, how are we doing with that?
I shared my real world experiences in response to Jeff’s post. No one said that Jesus cast a mental illness from the man and into the pigs (that I remember). Even though it may have had a similar effect if He did. Jeff (as an agnostic) gave a jab in response to another member who stated that “hearing voices” (schizophrenia?) is caused by demons. Jeff clearly don’t see it that way.
Back to the account though - Jesus must of laughed a bit concerning legion’s stupidity as they delayed their trip to the abyss by maybe only 30 seconds or so. Or I guess maybe 4 minutes or so that is, supposing they could stay till the pigs stopped breathing.
Again, an agnostic (like Jeff) is not convinced it happened because the bible says it happened. I’m not sure why you are restating this point. I agree - if God wrote the bible He definitely wouldn’t put false info in there, even though He does put some pretty deep mysteries in there!
We all have bias, you and I know that. I do try to stay open to all possibilities. I (by the grace of God) don’t ever want to be stuck in a false point of view and not be willing to change it.
I already stated (maybe in another thread?) that it WAS necessary to get a certain ‘quality’ of wisdom and understanding and knowledge and I meant that **for us in this universe and in this existence ** (that is all spiritual and physical dimensions of this existence).
This brief, blink of an eye, multi-trillion year flash in the pan of eternity experience ain’t all that’s going down for an infinite Creator ya’ know.
What about impersonal, finite, self aware creatures? (JK)
I have used this example before but it is one that I like a lot - claiming that mental illness is due to demonic possession is ‘safe’ because noone can truly ‘disprove’ that it hasn’t really been caused by invisible nasty creatures/beings or whatever. This is the same with faith healing of internal things like cancers (people do survive cancers even without faith healing).
However, I have never ever seen reports of an amputee being healed - now that would be a powerful argument for some kind of God (thanks James Randi ). Let’s see the spontaneous regrowth of a missing limb or let’s see a thalidamite victim sprout whole and usable limbs. It has never happened, it doesn’t happen and it never will happen. I know that just because there are charlatans in the faith healing game that it doesn’t mean one can say all faith healers are cheats but up to now every one that has been investigated has been fake - it’s this kind of thing that says to me ‘Emperor’s new clothes’, mind you - I do like the purple doublet and hose with matching green trim!
I agree Jeff that at some point, it MUST HAVE SOME REALITY to it if it’s truth. The records of Jesus tell of observable real world results. As far as " It has never happened, it doesn’t happen and it never will happen." that’s just a faith statement on your part as you have no way of knowing that. But I’m sure your response will be “all the empirical evidence supports my view”
I worked (wouldn’t you know it?) in the ‘word of faith’ movement and I did see a couple of miracles (complete with before and after x-rays and freaked out doctors). I was around this stuff my whole life though, in fact, from before birth and i will admit it is a extreme rarity.
In the same way there is always an out as to why demons don’t leave like “I can’t cast out your friends” or “There must be hidden sin in your life” or “The church has no power because it is apostate” etc etc etc. So nothing definite can ever be pinned down except “Well, maybe it didn’t work in this case - but it doesn’t change the word of God”.
The Baptists have the ultimate out “There are no more supernatural gifts at work today - that part’s over”.
There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. Unity and Diversity in One Body. For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free–and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact the body is not one member but many. If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. And if they were all one member, where would the body be? But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. ( 1 Cor. 12:5-25. )
No.
Are the ones you cast out impersonal?
What is an “impersonal, finite, self aware creature”?
BTW: You really do want to believe that the devil and his demons are impersonal, don’t you?
And we should all be honest about our presuppositions ( like Jeff is. )
Let’s recap here
Now you say
So you’re saying that any newly created ( self-aware ) creatures wouldn’t need the “quality” of wisdom, understanding, and knowledge that we get “in this universe and in this existence”–right?
That still makes this universe ( with it’s anguish and suffering, devil, temptation, adversity, sin, Law, Grace, Calvary, and judgment ) unnecessary.
And, again: How can you have any confidence in the Love of a God who would unnecessarily will the existence of sin, suffering, evil, temptation, and the devil ( in any universe ) ???
Let’s take a look at Calvary for a minute.
( And let’s not just think about what it meant to us, but what it meant to God, His Son, and His Son’s mother. )
For His Son, it was an agonizing, humiliating, prolonged, painful death.
For Mary, it was a sword thru her heart ( and what greater pain could there be for a mother than to watch a child slowly tortured to death? )
And what was it for God ( according to your philosophy )?
Was it an act of sacrificial love?
No
If it wasn’t necessary it couldn’t be that.
It could be no more than theater.
Given your stated point of view, it was just the way God wanted things to happen ( in this universe. )
The death of God’s Son was just something He arbitrarily willed, and any appearance of sacrificial love is a mere sham.
These are your theory’s necessary corollaries ( whether you realize it or not. )
Any philosophy that denies creatures a will of their own ( or that makes choice [with the consequent possibility of sin and error] an unnecessary element in God’s plan ) makes a mockery of the Cross.
Byron, before I go on to this, I want to bring some closure to our previous conversion. For example, based on my last two replies, do you agree that the Bible teaches that the devil faces judgment? And do you also believe that the devil faces judgment?
James, I’m reluctant to pursue this avenue of what is just judgement because then we will have to get into other uncomfortable judgement issues like the judging and consequent drowning of babies and little children etc etc. I would rather just note that as you see it judgement is not just unless the judgee has the ability to choose something to avoid the judgement. Is that what you’re after here?
Byron, no, at this point, I’m trying to get at the nature of the bad guys. And I want to know if you believe that these bad guys can make crafty decisions.
They have evil crafty thoughts, yes. Decisions? I don’t think of it as decisions. If they could all repent of evil right now it would mess everything up, you know, mess up prophecy and everything
I want to make sure I understand this. I think you’re implying that all good heavenly agents and all bad heavenly agents are intrinsically incapable of making decisions. They all have zero control of their thought life. Is that correct?
This is very interesting ( and I don’t want to interrupt ), but I must point something out to you Byron.
The question we were discussing ( and that you brought up ) concerned “new, self-aware creatures.”
You said that my position would require them to learn from experience ( as we do ), and that this would necessitate “endless new rebellions.”
When I back quoted your earlier statement that “there can be no growth or character development without temptation and adversity” ( and asked you whether these “new creatures” would have to undergo temptation and adversity ), you started qualifying your statement in some very strange ways.
“New creatures” wouldn’t have lived in “this universe,” or shared “this experience”–would they?
If they don’t need the “certain quality of knowledge, wisdom, and understanding” we get from “this experience”–why do we need “all this mess”?
You see, you can’t have it both ways Byron.
Either all the “mess” you keep talking about is necessary, or it isn’t.
And if it isn’t, God has willed it all ( even the death of His Son ) arbitrarily.
So by denying creatures a will of their own, your thesis does in fact make a mockery of the Cross ( and all human experience. )
Yikes! “Heavenly agents” is a broad term. I am speaking of evil spirits who have (or had) some authority here. What good thoughts would a “spirit of infirmity” have? What good thoughts would a “spirit of uncleaness” have? Or a “deaf and dumb” spirit?
) but that’s the price you pay for hardheadedness. With the experiences of others I am equally skeptical and MUST SEE SOME FRUIT and tangible results before I believe, and really - I don’t think that is a shortcoming.
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