Michael, you have to stop that nonsense! You have much to offer here, but passing a sentence of damnation on someone you disagree with makes your other valuable offerings less liable to be taken seriously. Please desist from those judgments bro.
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If someone’s not a Christian they’re not a Christian. When you reject the atoning sacrifice of Christ you’re not a Christian. Not condemning anyone for anyone can become a Christian if they will accept the atoning sacrifice that Christ offered up to the Father.
There are at least 7 theories of the atonement. You have chosen 1 of those as THE correct theory. You may be right, or wrong - but if you are wrong, but still trust in the Father’s good will as expressed in His Son, being wrong on a difficult interpretation of scripture won’t damn you. If you bear the fruit of the Spirit, you’re in Christ, even if ‘wrong’ about certain things.
No I hold that penal substitution is at the heart of the atonement. The atonement is like a multifaceted diamond. Reject Penal Substitution and you are outside Christianity. Especially when you blaspheme God by saying he’s the God of Moloch. No it’s the God of Abraham.
50 Reasons Why Jesus Came To Die
1 To absorb the wrath of God
2 To free us from the slavery of sin
3 That we may die to sin and live for righteousness
4 To please His heavenly Father
5 To achieve His own resurrection from the dead
6 To show God’s love and grace to sinners
7 To cancel the legal demands of the law against us
8 To become a ransom for many
9 For the forgiveness of our sins
10 To provide the basis for our justification
11 To complete the obedience that becomes our righteousness
12 To take away our condemnation
13 To abolish circumcision and all rituals as the basis for salvation
14 To bring us to faith and keep us faithful
15 To give us a clear conscious
16 To make us holy
17 To obtain for us all things that are good for us
18 To heal us from moral sickness
19 To give eternal life to all who believe in Him
21 To deliver us from the present evil age
22 To reconcile us to God
23 To bring us to God
24 So that we might belong to Him
25 To give us confident access to the holy place
26 To become for us the place where we meet God
27 To bring the Old Testament priesthood to an end
28 Become our High Priest
29 Free us from the futility of our ancestry
30 So that we would die to the law and bear fruit for God
31 To enable us to live for Christ and not ourselves
32 To make His cross the ground of all our boasting
33 To enable us to live by faith in Him
34 To give marriage it’s deepest meaning
35 To create people passionate for good works
36 To call us to follow His example of lowliness and love
37 To create crucified followers
38 To free us from the fear of death
39 So that we will be with Him after death
40 To secure our resurrection from the dead
41 To disarm the rulers and authorities
42 To unleash the power of God in the Gospel
43 To destroy hostility between the races
44 Ransom people from every tribe and nation
45 Gather His sheep from around the world
46 Rescue us from final judgment
47 Gain His joy and ours
48 So that He would be crowned with glory
49 To show the worst evil in human history was meant by God for good.
50 To learn obedience and be perfected
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That’s a useful list.
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Just one correction. I don’t believe that Christ absorbed the wrath of God. The cup Jesus drank was a cup of mercy. Severe mercy. We know this because of the word in Isaiah 53 means chastening or correction. “The chastening for our well being fell upon Him”. There’s no penal element in the word. So, it wasn’t a cup of wrath but a cup of mercy. We also know this because I think it was James and John Jesus asked if they could drink from His cup. He told them that they would indeed drink from His cup. If it was penal wrath then he would be telling them that they would have to pay for their sins after He payed for them on the cross which is a double payment and that’s unjust. That fits with this scripture:
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, or lose heart when He rebukes you. For the Lord disciplines the one He loves, and He chastises everyone He receives as a son.” Endure suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?
God did not inflict Christ with penal punishment. Rather, Christ voluntarily took upon Himself death which would have been the penal punishment for us had it been inflicted upon us. Christ willingly paid the penalty for our sins. Our justice system permits people to pay penalties like fines on behalf of other persons who are in agreement. This would fit with the OT sacrifices. Death is the penalty for sin and the animal would die in the place of the worshipper but it wasn’t being punished by God with penal wrath. Rather, the animal suffered the fate that would have been the worshippers penal punishment had it happened to him.
I think that’s a good point; I certainly never considered it in that manner.
Well here’s something to consider… IF Jesus’ suffering and martyrdom for the cause of Israel’s redemption was real THEN surely the apostles did indeed join with their master in the bearing of that suffering — this certainly is in line with the likes of Perriman’s assessment…
But God has shown that he is righteous nevertheless by providing an alternative “redemption” (apolutrōsis) for Israel through faith in Jesus’ death as an event that atones for Israel’s sins. We have the same metaphor in 4 Maccabees 17:22, used with reference to the deaths of the martyrs: “And through the blood of those pious people and the propitiatory (hilastēriou) of their death, divine Providence preserved Israel, though before it had been afflicted” (NETS). All who believe in this act of redemption for all Israel will be justified on the day of God’s wrath against the oikoumenē.
Jesus’ redemptive work of the Cross was outworked through the apostles and firstfruit saints ON BEHALF OF all Israel to where they also suffered “the cup” as Jesus predicted. THEY were baptised into his sufferings (Mk 10:38-39), and even as such Paul claims of himself on behalf of them…
Col 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,
“Lacking” NOT in efficaciousness by in breadth of scope and reach, thus… “as though God were pleading through us” etc. The firstfruit saints aka ‘the body of Christ’ suffered in fulfilling Christ’s mandate — consider the following…
Isa 42:6 “I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness, and will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, as a light to the Gentiles,…
Isa 49:6 Indeed He says, ‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, that You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”
These texts above are unequivocally understood to be referencing Israel’s messiah… Jesus. Now see this below… with these messianic texts squarely in mind Paul claims ownership of the same placing themselves in FULL solidarity with Christ in these emphatic terms…
Acts 13:47 For so the Lord has commanded us: ‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, that you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”
Pretty bold, pretty brave and pretty comprehensive… THEY were making up what was lacking and cooperating with… “God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure” to where Paul’s confidence brimmed… “that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ” i.e., the prophesied parousia.
That’s assuming it was only for Israel and not the whole world. James and John were included in the world that Christ died for. If they were to drink wrath for the punishment for sins it would be unjust because Christ would drink that cup in their place. The cup was a cup of mercy. Severe mercy. This is what God uses when He disciplines. He uses retribution when He punishes with penal wrath. Evidence that it was mercy comes from Isaiah 53:5
The chastening for our well being fell upon Him.
The Hebrew word here is musar
musar:
discipline, chastening, correction
The corrective discipline is one of medicine and well being. There’s nothing retributive in the Hebrew word. Indeed, the Bible says Christ learned obedience through what He suffered. This is severe mercy.
There are many views on who is (& isn’t) a Christian. For a few examples, some think one must be water baptized, or be a member in good standing with a certain church, or believe in the Trinity, or speak in tongues, etc.
Similarly there are those who believe one is not a Christian if they don’t hold to the “penal substitution” view of the atonement.
Calvinist Matt Slick views the “Moral government idea of the atonement” as “heretical”: https://carm.org/moral-government-atonement
https://carm.org/substitutionary-atonement-jesus-christ
"At the 2017 Southern Baptist Convention annual meeting…One of the other resolutions that seemed to go unnoticed was “On The Necessity Of Penal Substitutionary Atonement.” With this resolution, a theological line in the sand has been drawn for Southern Baptists concluding that “the denial of penal substitutionary atonement constitutes false teaching that leads the flock astray.” " https://www.missioalliance.org/penal-substitutionary-atonement-necessary/
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Good point Origin. I find myself closing off sometimes.
This simply doesn’t gel with so many texts… metaphorically ‘the cup’ speaks of suffering NOT mercy — and that pre-eminently in the context of Israel’s redemption and that with Jesus’ use typically understood in terms of laying down one’s life, e.g., when Jesus prayed… “Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will.” or “Put your sword into the sheath. Shall I not drink the cup which My Father has given Me?” — this wasn’t mercy but severe suffering.
davo,
Severe mercy is severe suffering. It was during Passover right before the fourth cup was going to be drunk during the meal that Jesus got up and went to the garden and said let this cup pass from me. In the Bible God’s severe mercy is intense disciplinary suffering. The Bible says Christ learned obedience though what He suffered. That’s not retribution but discipline. The Bible says God disciplines those whom He loves.
Davo,
As Paidion pointed out Christ is our mercy seat
Yes of course… but I’m not aware of anyone here arguing against that point.
Well Christ is our mercy seat and Christ is our cup. Severe mercy is severe suffering. It’s God’s disciplinary correction. Christ learned obedience through what He suffered. This isn’t retribution. In he cup is the blood. The mercy seat is where the blood was sprinkled. Jesus is the cup.
Psalm 16:5
The LORD is my chosen portion and my cup; You have made my lot secure.
Psalms 116:13
I will lift up the cup of salvation and call on the name of the LORD
Well you are of course JUST mixing metaphors… of which can be applied as needed.
I’ve already explained why it wasn’t a cup of wrath. It was the cup at Passover. The fourth cup after Christ said “this is my blood”. Let this cup pass from me is a reference to that 4th cup at Passover. After the third cup with His disciples Jesus got up and went to the garden and said "Let this cup pass from me. Though not my will but yours be done. It was the fourth cup of intense suffering which is severe mercy. Christ learned obedience through what He suffered. Not retribution at all.