Davo,
I base my quote on “Vengeance is Mine I will repay” from Paul on the Hebrew Bible he’s quoting from:
The word retribution is there in the context.
Yeah… so I’m not real sure why you’re telling me this as your position is abundantly clear. I’m pointing to the fact that retribution in terms of God is NOT a matter of vindictiveness.
I doubt that I grasp this or have ever seen these scales. Do you think that imposing punishment on the innocent Jesus also in itself somehow fixed the universe’s scales?
Yes. If you want to see how I can repeat what I’ve said earlier in the thread or you can scroll up and read it.
My friend, I appreciate your clear “yes” confirming what I’d gleaned. I do remain unpersuaded that the universe has, or requires, such “scales,” and I perceive that the ultimate concern concerning righteousness is actually making things right, rather than seeing the infliction of suffering as an end in itself.
Indeed, the Bible’s declaration makes more sense to me that punishing an innocent one instead of the guilty is unjust. And that what makes Jesus bearing unjust evil redemptive is that it has the power to change our lives, rather than that in itself it carries out justice.
Quoting OT passages to support your view doesn’t cut it. Paul didn’t quote those passages, he quoted the applicable part. And he interpreted them to fit the point he was making. That kind of thing is done throughout the NT. For example:
Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.” (Matthew 2:13-15)
Matthew was quoting from Hosea 11:10:
When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
Clearly, when Hosea stated that God said these words, he was not suggesting that God would call Jesus out of Egypt after His parents brought Him there. Rather God called His son Israel of out of slavery in Egypt. But Matthew APPLIED these words to Jesus’s parents bringing Him out of Egypt.
Sure, as recorded in the OT, Moses and the Prophets depicted God as vengeful. Jesus described Him quite differently—as one who was kind to evil people.
You have neither agreed nor disagreed with my explanation that “εκδικησις” in 2 Corinthians 7:11 does NOT mean “vengeance”, and so I will proceed on the assumption that you agree, but are maintaining that the word in Romans 12:17-21 means “vengeance.” I say that that word NEVER means “vengeance.” In Romans 12:17-21, it means “justice.” Yes, God gets angry. He gets angry when people sin, because others are HARMED by sin, and God whose essence is LOVE is displeased seeing people harmed. God will JUDGE people—reward the righteous and correct the unrighteous. ALL of God’s judgments against the unrighteous are REMEDIAL. Yes, God says, “Justice is Mine, I will recompense.” God will recompense the righteous with rewards, and recompense the unrighteous with correction. BOTH of these are done in LOVE. For God IS love and does nothing except from the motive of LOVE. Some translations render “εκδικησις” as “punishment.” I’m okay with that as long as it’s understood as corrective punishment and not penalty. In the following passage from Hebrews, it is said in the ESV translation, that the Lord DISCIPLINES the one He loves (and He loves everyone). The word translated “discipline” actually means “child train.” The Greek word that is translated as “discipline” is “παιδευω” (paideuō). The noun “paidion” (which I use as my name in this forum) means “trained child.”
And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. (Heb 12:5-11 ESV)
Some human fathers out of anger, penalize their erring children. “Okay, John, You know the family rule. Your are not allowed to go out after 10 P.M. And you know the penalty for disobeying that rule is that you will not be allowed to go out at nights for a week.”
God does not inflict penalties.
A good human father disciplines or teaches his erring children. He wants to train them to do better. In a case like this, he may also prevent his son from going out for a week. But he carefully explains to him that it is for his own benefit, and possibly his own safety.
Though God may become angry to see how we hurt ourselves and others by our wrongdoing, but out of LOVE, He wants to train us to do better.
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God punishes because it is deserved, in order to balance the books? Or, God punishes to heal, because He is love?
Where in the scriptures does it say that God is required by his nature to punish sinners? Nowhere does it say that God is constrained by retributive justice. To the contrary, God says that he will have mercy and compassion on whoever he wants to (Romans 9:15)…
Ironically, the picture of God as a retributively just judge dealing out punishment does not do justice to the biblical picture of what justice is. As the early church fathers emphasize, there was nothing just about the crucifixion of Jesus. God has zero interest in hurting people, no matter how much of a “right” he might have to do so. All he wants is reconciliation…
Penal substitution pits the Father against Jesus in what looks like a schizophrenic deity. Our greatest ally is Jesus, and our greatest enemy is not the devil, but God and the wrath he brings against us. It makes God the author of death, dealing it out to sinful humanity because they deserve it according to his justice. Jesus bearing the cross brings not us but God to repentance, changing his mind about how he will treat us…
(From Supernatural Gospel)
Ironically, the God-as-Judge viewpoint does not present a biblical picture of what divine justice is about at all, but is a legalistic perspective that comes from human culture. Biblically, to “bring justice” does not mean to bring punishment, but to bring healing and reconciliation. Justice means to make things right. Throughout the Prophets justice is associated with caring for others, as something that is not in conflict with mercy, but rather an expression of it. Divine justice is God’s saving action at work for all that are oppressed, as the following verses demonstrate:
Learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow (Isaiah 1:17). Note what happens when one does right by seeking justice. The oppressed are encouraged and the helpless are helped.
This is what the LORD says: `Administer justice every morning; rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed (Jeremiah 21:12). Justice is done when the oppressed is rescued.
This is what the LORD Almighty says: `Administer true justice: show mercy and compassion to one another (Zechariah 7:9). How does one administer true justice? By showing mercy and compassion to everybody involved.
Yet the LORD longs to be gracious to you; he rises to show you compassion. For the LORD is a God of justice (Isaiah 30:18). What is the reason our Lord wants to be gracious to us? Because He is just.
If we want to understand the concept of justice as the writers of the Old Testament did, then we must see it as a “setting things right again.” There is no conflict between God’s justice and His mercy. They both flow from His love.
(From Gracewalk Ministries)
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Thank you, Hermano! That was like refreshing rain upon a desert.
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Let me think about it Paidion. I’ve been reading some George MacDonald and I actually like a lot of what he says. I take back what I said about you and him. I apologize and ask for your forgiveness.
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Okay Paidion,
Here’s what I’m going to do. God doesn’t take vengeance or retribution anymore. The days of vengeance are described in the NT as happening at the destruction of Jerusalem. This happened in 70 A.D. The Days of Vengeance are over. The lake of fire isn’t Gehenna. It’s never called Gehenna. It’s a lake of purification and baptism. It’s lasting correction. When one is baptized in the lake of fire he dies to self (ego death). The old sinful self is destroyed as one is baptized and risen to new life. That’s the best I can do.
My God, you all talk like you are the final authority…
You all have to realize these are all OPINIONS… opinion’s like all the denominations and believers believe.
When you realize that, you will begin to work towards understanding reconciliation. 
Do you also insist that your own view is one of the “opinions” all denominations believe?
Yes sir and I believe that my opinion is as valid as any that you want to put forth… And I believe I can find folks from other beliefs that think their views are as valid as yours. 
The ‘lake of fire’ is never called… “a lake of purification and baptism” — it was called… ‘the second death’ and it was pertinent solely to Israel. Babylon was Israel’s first death (exile) from which there was the promise of resurrection (Ezek 37:1-14), which God fulfilled in Christ. There was to be NO resurrection of the old covenant Mosaic world once it was razed in the conflagrations of… ‘the Days of Vengeance’ i.e., Jesus’ prophesied gehenna — the WHOLE lot came down as it all went up in the flames of the AD70 Parousia.
Yep, I find those who resent others as expressing their opinions too strongly, are usually those who offer their view with just as much insistence that it is as valid as any.
Bob, not connecting. I appreciate strong opinions, but I have come to realize that strong opinions usually equate with ‘not being able to view the whole picture’.
The ‘lake of fire.… is pertinent solely to Israel.
Can you detail some of the clues in Revelation that would assure that a Gentile churchmen reading it would know that this fiery image was not of concern to them and not pertinent to their non-Jewish relatives?
David, here is your opening… Tough you kind of dealt with it above.
I’m glad your opinions aren’t strong and that you have ability to see the whole picture 
Hi Bob,
Love you and thanks for the understanding…but I will reiterate the idea that there are multiple opinions about Christianity, and about penal substitution. We have to start to understand if we are to believe a singular denomination or to maybe start to look at alternatives…