John said in REV that the number of people was beyond counting. Does that sound like a ‘few’ to you? Christ, then, was probably talking about that generation - few of them did find Him before being destroyed. Audience matters.
It’s strange that you won’t give the same consideration to ‘All’ meaning ALL in the hundreds of universal passages you’ve been shown. You say you’re not a Calvinist but you seem to have the same blinders on. All means ALL.
Get a Bible - underline all the NT passages with ‘all’ in them and you’ll be a universalist before you even get to the end.
Well, you’d be in good company as a uiversalist amongst the early fathers. They were the closest to the ORIGINAL manuscripts - many written in their own language. None of those manuscripts existed beyond them. Those men were never condemned for preaching universalism - it was never considered a heresy. What does that tell you?
Something has been lost in the translation. I’m not a linguist but I can put two and two together. And I do think there’s enough to go on with what we have now. Although a time machine would be nice. What were they reading and understanding that convinced them that salvation was universal? We know there was contention and arguments amongst the early church - like every church - so where were the BA’s of that time accusing them of a grievous error? There weren’t any because they were reading the same manuscripts and could not find fault with universal salvation!
Anyway, I’d rather error on the side of Grace. And if I’m wrong, I’m going to blame it on Paul.
“few” will probably be around 20 billion or so, but compared to every person that has lived it will be “few”, not “All”. if all means all, why didn’t Jesus say all?
Christ was probably talking about “that generation”? How do you arrive at that conclusion from the text?
Jesus: “But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw [size=200]all[/size] men to myself.”
All means all.
And ALL the resurrected (which is everyone) will confess Him as Lord! He will do what He said He will do. He will draw everyone to Himself. Everyone. ALL. Not ‘some’ or a ‘few’ as the Calvinists love to twist it - but ALL.
I like that verse myself, but Jesus was referring to the Father drawing mankind to Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection and all that the Father gives to Jesus are the one’s who believe and then receive…
Try again, that’s not at all accurate. That’s not what he said! You wanted proof. Chew on it for a while without ‘interpreting’ it for us. His statement stands as is.
Jesus is simply describing the way God will draw sinful mankind to himself…by Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection. Those who believe and receive are the ones the Father gives to Jesus.( John 6:37-40).
There is not one place where Jesus spoke of a final punishment which is perpetual in duration. He spoke of AIONIOS KOLASIS: The definition of both AIONIOS KOLASIS is an age of corrective punishment which lasts ever so long as correction is needed. There is no potential when a person understands the language used, there is no potential when one understand God the ontological nature of God is love.
This is a case of lack of knowledge. Like when they were unsure if a nuclear bomb would set the atmosphere on fire, the ‘potential’ was there but 50 years later it was just a unconfirmed fear, the reality is nuclear bombs may do lots of damage but they have no potential of igniting the atmosphere.
Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to understand what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was the murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! [John 8:43-47]
I am human and fallible, when I speak I do not speak on my own accord but by the Spirit who has sent me. I was not speaking, but the Holy Spirit within me. I claim nothing, but He speaks the Truth. The only one who should fear, is the one who believes their Father is a murderer, who throws His children into a pit of despair never to let them out.
Our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. [1 Thessalonians 1:5]
Again, I really have to defend BA. You, like so many Christian sects, think you have it figured out because The Spirit gave you some hidden knowledge. You are implying that all Christians, if they are tuned in enough to The Spirit will join you in enlightenment. Nobody is closer to God than anyone else. We are all sinners and can all equally misinterpret The Spirit. Stop being so sure of yourself.
You both provide Ad Hominem Attacks when you are empty for reasons to believe what you believe, as did the Pharisee did when they could not find anything wrong with what He said, they began to attack His character. So, I share great company.
Rainzbow, you have a defender personality defending a person without looking at any of the facts first. As Proverbs says, “Zeal without knowledge is not good, as is to be hasty and miss the way.” Since you have no knowledge of your position, you project this on others. Your error in all your judgments concerning what you think it is I am saying as it is not up to me to convince you of anything, you have a brain, use it for study and being an approved workman of the Word, not a judge who cannot take the lumber out of his eye but likes to point out a tick in his neighbors.
Prove me wrong, and your points have merit; attack me for being so sure of what I know is right, you reveal yourself as an impostor. However since your medium of judgment comes from timidity and uncertainty, you will naturally find boldness and confidence a strike against me.
It bothers me none what you think of me, it bothers me how blind a person can defend a position they themselves cannot prove and criticize a position they themselves are unsure of. I have a knack of finding these folks.
I actually have never attacked your character or even come close to doing so. I have reasons for what I believe (UR), I simply have not and will not rule out the other side because I believe that it is impossible to ignore those sections of The Bible at could possibly prove me wrong. I am simply stating that my only hope is Christ and beyond that I am lowly and ignorant!!
I see both sides of the argument and so I will not have zeal to attack your position and I never will. My only zeal is directed toward Christ and what Christ would have me do. I do have zeal back up someone who is being accused of ignorance because they don’t have access to the apparent special revelation that you believe you have. You are being elitist toward BA and therefore I feel the need to defend him. I am almost certain that you don’t have access to revelation that makes you more knowledgable than other Christians, but if you truly believe you do, proclaim it loudly! Go from church to church. Start your own! I won’t be joining you, but if you really believe you have special revelation, the only thing logically to do would be to act on faith.
You act as if timidity is always bad thing. I am strong only in Christ. In all things unrelated to Christ and how I understand Christ’s morality, I hope to be timid when I am speaking in an area we cannot be sure of.
I have nothing against you at all. I believe that if you say you are a Christian that you are. I don’t think your teaching methods are morally wrong, simply perhaps incomplete (dangerous? perhaps an overstatement, but one that could be said at most. Evil? You are certainly not doing anything evil because you are simply teaching how you understand things). Do I think you are stupid or illogical? God forbid I accuse you of that. You aren’t. Your logic is great and it is the same logic I use to defend UR. Do I think you are attacking BA with malice? No, I don’t, but you have allowed elitist views to creep into your mind and that is why he associated you with a cult leader.
2 Timothy 1:7 For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline.
You erroneously mistake timidity with humility, they are not the same.
Demonstrate the so-called elitist view. If you cannot, then you have contradicted your first statement in which you say you have not attacked my character.
All accusation must be supported by credible witness, if you cannot support your accusation with supportive evidence, then you error in your judgment and error in even associating my belief to be within an elitist view.
If it was my way, I would not choose such a life, so it is not a case of congratulations but an obligation which I perform without complaint.
A Pastor for 12 years, Student of the Word Ministries (wordofgrace.net). Sacrificed my life for the benefit of others, I give to the poor, homeless and widow; provide instruction for the weak, feed the hungry and give drink to the thirsty. Healing the sick when they are in need of healing, and sending people support programs to rid themselves of their additions. These good works are what we were created before hand to do in Christ Jesus, there is no boasting of what I have done because it is not I who does it but Christ who lives within me. I step into the Light so that it may be clear that everything I have done is God working through me for His purposes.
Many do not understand why I am confident and as explained previously, such explanations only fears of insecurity individuals to accuse me of being proud, arrogant and boastful. Why do people find their acceptance comes from putting others down in order to lift themselves up? If you are insecurity, uncertain and with fear, admit it. There is no shame in this.
