The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The problem of evil and its existence

Johnny,

A lot of people have the misconception that God is egotistical because He seeks His own glory. But He does this for the joy of humanity. We were made to make much of something great. When we do this it completes our joy. The reason God seeks our praise and worship is not because He is egotistical and won’t be complete until He gets it. He does it because we won’t be complete until we give it. Therefore, this isn’t arrogance on God’s part. It’s love. Love seeks it’s joy in the holy joy of the beloved. Selfishness seeks it’s own private pleasures at the expense of others. This is what Corinthians means when it says love is not self-seeking. God wants us to be happy in Him. For it was by the joy that was set before Him that Christ endured the cross. It was the joy of purifying His bride and being exalted at the right hand of the Father. What you fail to see is that pride is thinking of yourself more highly than you ought to. For humans to desire the praise and worship of others is egotistical. But we aren’t God. He doesn’t think more highly of Himself than He ought to. He is the greatest Being in existence. His loving and thinking of Himself is in direct proportion to who He is - the greatest of all Beings. Therefore, He’s not egotistical. Even Christ said to worship only God when He was tempted by Satan.

God is Christ

God is Father

Christ worshipped Father

God worshiped God

God loves Himself more than anything. For us to do this is vanity for we are not God. There are ways we are to be like God and ways we are not to be like God. He alone is God. He delights in His image more than anything which is first and foremost His humility and the glories of His love and mercy. We are to love God above all else and our neighbor as ourselves. God loves His image of holy love so much that He is transforming the world into that image.

Jesus’ ultimate aim for us is that we see and enjoy his glory:

Jesus endured his final hours of suffering for God’s glory:

Jesus warned that not seeking God’s glory makes faith impossible:

God created us for his glory:

Hi Cole,
I’m not sure how your last two posts tie-in to the subject of this thread, “The problem of evil and its existence”?

Steve,

I was responding to Johnny and partly to you because you blasphemed God by calling Him self-serving and evil. Evil and suffering exist so that Christ can display the greatness of the glory of God’s love by entering into suffering Himself to overcome all evil and suffering for the joy of all people… Again God didn’t create evil and suffering but He permitted it for justifiable reasons. I fail to see how this is self serving. Selfishness seeks it’s own private pleasures at the expense of others. This is what Corinthians means when it says love is not self-seeking. God wants us to be happy in Him. For it was by the joy that was set before Him that Christ endured the cross. It was the joy of purifying His bride and being exalted at the right hand of the Father.

I don’t see glory quite that way. In the OT, chabod signifies “weight” or “heaviness.” I see that as God’s desire, for our own good, that we have a sense of the import of taking Him seriously. As a father and a mother have a responsibility to see (if they can) that their children give them healthy respect – and this for the good of each child as well as for the relationships of the children with one another and with the parents – so our heavenly Father will have it that we honor Him and give Him the appropriate “weight of glory” due to our Father.

I was struggling with this concept, and with the idea of “fearing God,” and one day my mom and I went to a restaurant with a western theme. They had a mural of a wagon train, featuring the trail boss’ face as the focal point. For anyone who doesn’t know, people who wanted to move into the American west during the settlement years would either put together or join a wagon train and hire a “trail boss” to lead the expedition. This would be an experienced frontiersman who would, hopefully, be familiar with the conditions and dangers and challenges they would meet on their way. This particular trail boss has a rugged, determined, and very stern expression on his face. He sits a paint horse as though he was born there, and is scanning the horizon (presumably for danger) as he rides up over a ridge toward the observer. It’s not a legendary work of art, but the painter did quite a good job on his/her central figure. (Caveat: Please take this in the limited sense I mean it. I realize that native Americans were shamefully treated in these years, and I’m not glorifying the westward expansion – certainly not in the way it was carried out.)

Contemplating this guy as I waited for my mom to fill up her plate, it occurred to me that THIS is perhaps at least part of what God means by insisting we take HIM seriously. I wouldn’t want to cross this trail boss if I were in the wagon train – but not because I dreaded him. I think I would fear to disobey his orders though, and I would want to avoid his censure. This wouldn’t be because I thought he meant me any harm or even because I feared his opinion of me, but rather because he was a stern man determined to get me and my companions safely to our destination, and would take it seriously if any of us did anything that would endanger ourselves or one another. Fearing God, giving Him glory – in this way – is, I think, appropriate today, but especially for the OT times, in the childhood of the human race, when perhaps fear may have been the thing we best understood. I don’t think that God means for us to give Him glory in the way we might glorify some terrifyingly powerful despot who would torture and perhaps destroy us if we failed to kowtow quickly enough. I don’t think He has in His thoughts a picture of the adoring masses worshiping some movie star or the latest politician superstar running for office or a pretty boy rock musician. I think it runs much deeper than that, and that it’s not something to stroke our Father’s ego but rather something necessary to US, that we understand who He is and that we need to take Him seriously and trust and obey Him.

In the New Testament, the word used for glory is doxa. It carries the typical meanings we moderns conceive of for glory, but there’s another deeper meaning that interests me. Glory meant the truth about a person – his or her story, whether good or bad. In the Old Testament, God wants us to fear Him. In the New, He wants us to KNOW Him. Giving God glory means to reveal Him to one another for all to see. Our Father wants to be known by all His children. THIS is the sort of glory that I see Jesus obtaining for the Father (and for Himself and for the Spirit) to whit: that we may KNOW Him. And by knowing Him, we might have “the God kind of life” or as most translations have it, “eternal life.”

I wince when someone promotes the idea of God as some kind of despot who WILL have His due of glory and homage. Clearly this is NOT the image displayed of the Father in the life of Jesus. Jesus was the one who stayed up all night praying and communing with the Father and then ministered to the poor and the lost and the bedraggled all day. He is the one who had nowhere to lay His head, who walked everywhere He went, who called out James and John for suggesting they might call down fire from heaven to destroy a village that had refused Him passage. This is the God who touched lepers and praised a woman with an issue of blood for sneaking up to touch the tassels of His garment without His consent, who defended the woman caught in shameful adultery. He doesn’t seem too concerned about His “glory” if by “glory” you mean the acclaim of men.

Jesus said to Philip, “Have I been so long with you and yet you do not know Me? He who has seen Me has seen the Father.” Our God, our Lord, wants to be KNOWN because if we can only see Him, we will be LIKE Him. He is not keen on men taking the credit for what HE has done because this would cause us to trust in a source that is no source at all. It would allow heedless and loveless men to lord it over one another and take advantage of one another. Glorifying men is dangerous, but to introduce and demonstrate God to our fellow men is a wonderful and beneficial thing.

Glory (in the sense of worshipful adoration) is not primarily and most importantly a thing that God deserves (though He does deserve it), but rather a thing that we need to see in Him, and that God alone can embody without being perverted and destroyed by it. Yes we need to give Him the glory because He and He alone deserves the glory. But NOT because He is a “glory hog.” It’s because this kind of glory is safe with no other. We need to honor and venerate our Father. He, strictly speaking, does not NEED to be honored and venerated by us. What’s more, He does not demand such honor and veneration for His sake or because of His worthiness. He demands it because WE need to respect our Father.

I realize this is somewhat rambling, and I don’t have time to go over it to pull it all together – but I hope it makes at least a credible effort at explaining what I believe about it. :slight_smile:

Love, Cindy

Cindy,

I believe the glory of God is the going public of his infinite worth. The holiness of God as the infinite value of God, the infinite intrinsic worth of God. And when that goes public in creation, the heavens are telling the glory of God, and human beings are manifesting his glory, because we’re created in his image, and we’re trusting his promises so that we make him look gloriously trustworthy.

The public display of the infinite beauty and worth of God is what I mean by “glory,” and I base that partly on Isaiah 6, where the seraphim say, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty. The whole earth is full of his—” and you would expect them to say “holiness” and they say “glory.” They’re ascribing “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty. The whole earth is full of his—” and when that goes public in the earth and fills it, you call it “glory.”

So God’s glory is the radiance of his holiness, the radiance of his manifold, infinitely worthy and valuable perfections.

The whole earth reveals who HE is. Cole, I appreciate your viewpoint and it is certainly not without merit. I just think you’re not quite understanding why or what I’m trying to say.

I do think it’s important to understand what the words mean. For example, a word study on Glory and a word study on Holiness are worth doing. I’ve done quite a lot of study on “glory” and the things I’ve found lead me to believe that the meaning we typically attach to it, while not entirely wrong, is at best incomplete, and certainly misleading in its incompleteness.

It’s important that we communicate with our words. The words themselves are not sacred – especially as they are only English words used to approximately translate the original language. It is the meaning that matters. That’s why I went to such lengths to share with you what those words seem to me (from my studies) to mean. When we say that God is jealous of His glory or that “His glory will He not share with another,” the world at large hears something quite OTHER than what the writer (I believe) intended to convey. The world sees (as a metaphor) a vain and selfish movie star or politician so insecure that s/he needs the constant acclaim and praise of everyone around. As I know you’ll agree, our Father isn’t like that at all.

“Glory” (in English) doesn’t mean quite the same thing to us as chabod or doxa meant to the original writers. I don’t think we even HAVE an English word or words to convey accurately the meanings of those Hebrew and Greek terms. Hence my post.

I think the glory of God is both extrinsic and intrinsic. God is intrinsically glorious in the sense of fullness, sufficiency, majesty, honor, worth, beauty, weight, and splendor. It’s a summary of His holiness, essence, or nature. God’s extrinsic glory is the communication of God’s intrinsic fullness and sufficiency. God alone is intrinsically glorious yet God manifests His extrinsic glory. He remains ontologically unique and distinct from His creatures while sharing His glory. The reason God seeks our praise and worship is not because He is egotistical and won’t be complete until He gets it. He does it because we won’t be complete until we give it. Therefore, this isn’t arrogance on God’s part. It’s love.

Hi Cole,

Not sure where I called God “self-serving and evil”. Something I wrote may have given that impression to you, but I assure you I view God as all good and completely selfless—to the point where I think He really does not care about His glory, though he is definitely “glorious” and worthy of praise.

That’s exactly what I believe as well, Cole. :smiley: The question I’m asking is: “for what justifiable reason did God permit evil and suffering?”

If you say he permitted it for His “glory” when he ends it, then I have to disagree. :frowning: If a physician had a patient that was bleeding, but did not stop the bleeding until the patient was at death’s door and needed multiple transfusions so he could be a “hero” by saving, he would lose his license. If a fireman, knew of a small fire in a trashcan but let it burn until the whole building was on fire so he could “get the glory” of saving the people in it, he’d probably go to jail.

We need to look for other reasons he permits ‘evil and suffering’.

Steve,

I already gave you one reason why God allows suffering. Instead of repeating that here I would just encourage you to re-read what I’ve already written. You also seem to be comparing God to finite and limited humans. This is a categorical mistake. For one thing God is infinite in wisdom and knowledge and knows all of reality as we are limited in our understanding of reality and God’s infinite ways. He alone is God. He’s in a category all by Himself. We shouldn’t expect to know all of God’s reasons. This is where trust comes in. The secret things belong to the Lord until He reveals them. My job is to trust Him, clean house, and help others. I don’t see God as something to try and figure out. It’s more about a relationship with me. He will reveal what is needed to know when the time is right. He has already revealed some things. Suffering, for instance, can make us stronger and build holiness. The Bible says Christ learned obedience through what He suffered. We can do likewise. This isn’t the only reason why God allows suffering in every instance. But it’s one of them in some instances with some people.

Steve,

If Christ doesn’t care about His glory then this passage makes no sense:

In this prayer of Jesus God glorifies Him. Jesus cares about His glory because He wants us to see it. He prays that in the end we would see His glory. This is because He is the most satisfying reality. The love of Jesus drives Him to pray for us, and suffer and die for us. Not that we may be central but that His glory may be central so that we may be filled with joy in seeing it and savoring it for all eternity. “Father I desire that they…be with me…to see my glory”. By beholding His glory we are transformed into His image. This is what it means for Jesus to love us. Divine love labors and suffers and dies to enthrall us with what is eternally glorious and satisfying: God in Christ. This is why He went to the cross. Divine love suffers and dies to break our bondage to the idol of self and focus our affections on the glory of God. Grace keeps God at the center. This is the love of God: to do everything necessary to enthrall us with what is most deeply satisfying - namely, Himself.

While Christ did the work of the Father He glorified the Father. Here in His prayer Christ is given the glory He had with the Father before the foundation of the world. This is the glory He wants us to see.

Go here:

youtu.be/Z_e3aJLRsdc

This is precisely the way I see it, Johnny.

Hi Cole,

This is essentially skeptical theism (another misnomer, I think.) It is, however, something I think we do have to fall back on as no other theodicy or combination of theodicies is adequate in my opinion. Here is the definition from the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

Hey Steve,

I just first wanted to say I appreciate you kind interaction here. Second, I see what I’m saying as simply a Biblical truth. Not skeptical theism. What I’m saying is based on having faith in God’s sovereign promises. Trusting the promise that says - God causes all things to work together for good for those that love Him. Having faith that He brings beauty out of ashes even though I may not know what He is doing at the present time. When I trust God to work all my circumstances together for my good, anxiety, frustration, impatience, bitterness, etc. are broken as hope arises and my heart is opened up to love. This is faith working itself out through love.

Cole, my man, I see where you’re coming from here :smiley:.

But - and it’s a big but - this doesn’t in any way justify God causing suffering and pain ‘for the manifestation of his glory’. Surely you can see that? How do you get from God loving his image of holy love to God causing suffering and pain to manifest that image?

Cheers

Johnny

Hi Cole,

I think this is really excellent! :smiley: This type of faith is something we all should have.

All the best,
Steve

This is probably one of the most misunderstood passage in the New Testament. Firstly, it is necessary to quote it correctly. The sentence does NOT say that :God causes everything which happens to work together for good for those that love Him." Secondly we need to quote it in context to understand it. From the context, it is clear that “all things” does not refer to all things that ever happen.

*We know that, to those who love God, God works everything together for good, to those being called according to [His} purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also pre-appointed to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he pre-appointed he also called, and those whom he called he also made righteous, and those whom he made righteous he also glorified. (Rom 8:28-30)[/i]

It is not that God works together all events for the good of those who love Him—the called ones. Consider that a significant number of those who love him have been crippled for life in auto accidents, tortured and killed, etc. Surely God didn’t cause all those things to happen for the good of those who suffered them.

It’s that God works everything together for good WITHIN THE VERY BEINGS of those being called according to His purpose. Immediately, Paul tells us what God does within those who are called to fulfill His purpose in them. First, He foreknew them. Those whom He foreknew, He pre-appointed them to be conformed to the image of the Son. God wants them to have a character like that of His Son. (It’s a process).Those whom He pre-appointed, He called — called them to righteousness. Then He made the called ones righteous. Finally, comes the amazing statement that those whom He made righteous, He glorified! But none of them are yet glorified, are they? But they WILL be, and when God decides to do a thing, it’s as good as done NOW.

We see another example of this in Heb 2:6-8:

It has been testified somewhere, “What is man, that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for him? You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor,putting everything in subjection under his feet.” Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him.

So though God put everthing in subjection to man, we do not at present see everything in subjection to him. This subjection has not yet occurred. But it’s written in the past tense, because it’s God’s intention to fulfill it. Likewise, it’s His intention to make glorification the final stage of His work within the hearts and minds of them that love Him!*

Hey Johnny,

I don’t believe God causes pain. Rather He permits is for morally justifiable reasons. I can tell you that when I’ve been in deep emotional pain and then it was suddenly released by me trusting that God is in control and He works all things together for the good of those that love Him, the feeling is ecstatic. My mind clears and beauty fills me with ecstasy. This is when God’s glory shines in humility. When my future is in His hands I have hope. Faith, hope, and love is then what motivates me. I let go and let God. This is when faith arises.

Dear John (dillj) and everybody else who already replied,

I am glad to see that this topic has taken off before I first looked at it. I wish to draw attention to another post of mine that addresses the problem of evil: “Divine Love, the Problem of Evil, and Theodicy” ([Divine Love, the Problem of Evil, and Theodicy)).

I’ve got a thread going in Poetry - GMac’s Book of Strife - I’m trying to draw a theodicy out that work, take a look and make comments if you find the time. Very challenging.