The problem of the atonement

[Cindy_Skillman]

I wondered about that too, Paidion, because really, at one ment is almost too good to be true. So I looked it up before I posted. I’d heard it from preachers you know, and preachers sometimes have been known to be, um, creative with words like that. But it turns out atonement was coined by Wm Tyndale for the purpose because the language didn’t have a word he deemed a direct translation. I can’t find anyone who says otherwise, though i looked for a whole, oh, five minutes at least!

Etymology
The word atonement gained widespread use in the sixteenth century after William Tyndale recognized that there was not a direct translation of the concept into English. In order to explain the doctrine of Christ’s sacrifice, which accomplished both the remission of sin and reconciliation of man to God, Tyndale invented a word that would encompass both actions. He wanted to overcome the inherent limitations of the word “reconciliation” while incorporating the aspects of “propitiation” and forgiveness. It is interesting to note that while Tyndale labored to translate the 1526 English Bible, his proposed word comprises two parts, ‘at’ and ‘onement,’ which also means reconciliation, but combines it with something more. Although one thinks of the Jewish Fast of Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement), the Hebrew word is ‘kaper’ meaning ‘a covering’, so one can see that ‘reconciliation’ doesn’t precisely contain all the necessary components of the word atonement. Expiation means “to atone for.” Reconciliation comes from Latin roots re, meaning “again”; con, meaning “with”; and ultimately, ‘sol’, a root meaning “seat”. Reconciliation, therefore, literally means “to sit again with.” While this meaning may appear sufficient, Tyndale thought that if translated as “reconciliation,” there would be a pervasive misunderstanding of the word’s deeper significance to not just reconcile, but “to cover,” so the word was invented.

I’m not sure, though, how at one-ment includes the concept of covering. I wonder though, as you’ve got me thinking, whether the idea of “covering” is more in the line of protection (you are hid with Christ in God) than of somehow hiding sins so that God “can’t see them.”

[Cole]

Cole, that’s your (and my) problem. You AREN’T free. That’s one of the reasons Jesus went to the cross – to set you free. He whom the Son shall set free shall be free indeed, Jesus said. This statement implies something less than complete and total freedom. Yes, you can choose what to do now and in five minutes and in ten, but you will nevertheless find that you are unable to live a perfect life (or you’re lying, and that’s a sin! ) Read Paul’s take on it in Romans 5-8.

How does a story of Christ dying and rising from the dead set us free?

[Paidion]

Obviously, Cindy, you were right about the etymology of the English word “atonement”. I wasn’t aware that William Tyndale coined the word for those specific uses until I read your post. I wonder how it came to mean “to make restitution” as in “You borrowed my lawn mower and wrecked it. You’re going to have to atone for that!”

But it IS the case that the Greek word “καταλλαγη” which means “reconciliation” and no more. This word occurs in three other places in the NT. In two of those places, the King James Version renders the word as “reconciliation”, and in the other place as “reconciling” (because the Greek is a verb). Here are all four verses in the King James translation:

Ro 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement <2643>.
Ro 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling <2643> of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation <2643>;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation <2643>.

Notice the same Strongs number in each case. I wonder what the thinking of the translators was in translating the word as “atonement” in
(Rom. 5:11).

So the word “καταλλαγη” SHOULD be translated as “reconciliation”, and in my opinion as I explained in the essay, the words ἱλασμος (hilasmos) and ἱλαστηριον (hilastārion) should be translated as “a means of mercy” or with the articlel “the means of mercy” (in reference to Christ’s sacrifice).

[Cindy_Skillman]

Cole, did you read the references? They answer your question. Remember, this is not an earthly, fleshly thing but a spiritual, heavenly thing. We Christians do still believe in things we can’t see. Read Romans 5-8 and read closely. You’ll find a blessing there.

[Cindy_Skillman]

Thanks, Paidion

You underscore yet once again how translators can color the meaning by the stroke of a pen. We really have to look at these verses in pretty much every case. I suppose it would be hard not to translate in favor of one’s own particular theology. They probably didn’t even notice what they were doing. (Maybe . . . ) It’s always a relief, having read some particularly troubling passage, to notice that the translation appears to have been skewed. Also I didn’t realize how the Septuagint differs significantly from the more popular versions of the OT. I’ve only gotten several chapters into Genesis and already found way more variants than I’d expected.

Love, Cindy

[Cole]

Cindy,

I’ve heard the cross preached many times and my mind was just all messed up. In fact watching Mel’s movie didn’t bring me deliverance. It’s good to know you are loved but the cross alone doesn’t do it. I like all of Jesus’ teachings and life examples.

[Cindy_Skillman]

But Cole, have you read Romans 5-8? It’s no good hearing “the cross preached” if you don’t know what the book really says. I’ve heard the “cross preached” many times too, and quite a few of those times it was preached badly. It’s important to go to the source.

[Cole]

But Cole, have you read Romans 5-8? It’s no good hearing “the cross preached” if you don’t know what the book really says. I’ve heard the “cross preached” many times too, and quite a few of those times it was preached badly. It’s important to go to the source.

Cindy,

Jesus’ whole life was a living sacrifice and fragrant offering up to God. Not just His death. I like everything Christ did including His teachings.

[Paidion]

Also I didn’t realize how the Septuagint differs significantly from the more popular versions of the OT. I’ve only gotten several chapters into Genesis and already found way more variants than I’d expected.

Yes, the Septuagint differs significantly from the Hebrew Masoretic text form from which virtually all OT versions are translated (with the exception of the Orthodox Study Bible which translates toe OT from the Septuagint.

Two other significant observations:

1. The New Testament quotes of the Old are similar or identical to the Septuagint, but are often quite different from the Masoretic text.
2. Cave 4 at the Qumran site contained OT Hebrew texts whose translation are quite similar or identical to the translation of the Septuagint. It is my thought that the Septuagint was translated from that text type, and that this text type is probably closer to or identical with the original, and that the Masoretic text differs considerably from it. However, the Septuagint itself has been changed over the years, either from copyists’ errors or deliberately altered.

Did you ever wonder about the Messianic passage from the book of Isaiah often quoted during the Xmas season: “His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, the Prince of Peace, the Everlasting Father”? From the Trinitarian point of view, the Son of God is not the Everlasting Father, nor from the Binitarian view or the early Christian view that He was begotten or born before all ages. Affirming that the Son of God is the Everlasting Father is consistent only with Modalism.

However, one form of the Septuagint doesn’t read “Everlasting Father” but “Father of the age to come”. That reading is consistent with most Christological positions. For Jesus will reign in the age to come, if we understand that age to be the 1000 years mentioned in Revelation. But, of course, when all things have been put under His feet, He will turn the Kingdom over to His Father that God may be all in all! Hallelujah!

[anon12438761]

Paidion - I’ve not heard of the Orthodox Study Bible. Do you recommend it?
Are there any reliable LXX translations into English, online and free, that you (or anyone here) are aware of?

[Cindy_Skillman]

I got the LXX for my Kindle, Dave, but I don’t remember whether I paid. It wasn’t much if I did. Okay, here we go: amazon.com/English-Translati … septuagint and it was $2.99. There was a Greek and English one available too, for $1.99, but the Greek would only have been confusing to me. If I remember, there were some negative reviews for formatting issues, but they must have fixed that because I haven’t had any problems.

[Cindy_Skillman]

Yes, Paidion, I have wondered about that. Father of the age to come makes a lot more sense. (And it will likely take me quite a long time to make it all the way to Isaiah, so I appreciate your pointing that out! Very appropriate to the season, too.

[anon12438761]

Thanks Cindy - I’ll drop one into my kindle as well.

[Paidion]

Dave you can download each book of the Septuatint in pdf format for free from this site:

ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/

And yes, I do recommend the Orthodox Study Bible, mainly because of its translation from the Septugint. We have a copy, but they’re rather costly.

Cindy, most, if not all, current editions of the Septuagint don’t have the “Father of the Age to Come” rendering.

The Septuagint translation in the link above doesn’t use the word “Father” at all in Isaiah 9:6. Here is the translation:

because a child was born for us,
a son also given to us,
whose sovereignty was upon his shoulder
and he is named Messenger of Great
Counsel, for I will bring peace upon the rulers,
peace and health to him.

I have a physical copy of the Septuagint, both in Greek and in English. The English translation is much the same as the above except the dative case is rendered “to us” instead of “for us” and “government” is used instead of “sovereignty” and “is upon his shoulder” instead of “was upon his shoulder” and “is called Messenger of Great Counsel” instead of “is named Messenger of Great Counsel.”

[anon12438761]

Thanks Paidion.

[Paidion]

I just looked up the Orthodox Study Bible’s rendering of Isaiah 9:6 (from the Septuagint). Only they have it as verse 5:

For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder. His name will be called the Angel of Great Counsel, for I shall bring peace upon the rulers, peace and health by Him.

[akimel]

The NETS translation of Isaiah 9:6:

because a child was born for us,
a son also given to us,
whose sovereignty was upon his shoulder,
and he is named Messenger of Great Counsel,
for I will bring peace upon the rulers, peace and health to him.

[Cindy_Skillman]

What does it mean, “Messenger of Great Counsel?”

[Paidion]

Was Jesus not a messenger of great counsel when he gave the instruction recorded in Matt. 5, 6, an 7, often called “The Sermon on the Mount”?
This was great counsel since His closing words were:

“Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.” (Matt 7:24-27)

Also He said, “Unless you forsake all and follow me you CANNOT be my disciple.” Then He announced the Kingdom of God as present in the midst of the Pharisees. That Kingdom consisted of the King (Himself) and His subjects (His disciples) Indeed, it seems to me that throughout that whole period from the time He was baptized until His death, He was a messenger of great counsel!

[Cindy_Skillman]

Oh, okay – I see that. I was mixing up council and counsel in my mind, so I couldn’t work out what a title like that could mean! Thanks – duh!