The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Restitution Of All Things

Dear Paidion: The chapter under consideration is not so much about time ending, but an entire new dimension of zao life beginning in the Son as death is swallowed up in one gigantic gulp of triumph.

1 Cor. 15:24, 28
24 “Then THE END will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Some selected quotes on the distinction between time and eternity, from Charles H. Pridgeon’s, Is Hell Eternal or Will God’s Plan Fail? (1920):

All time will one day be converted into eternity. Time is allied to motion; eternity to rest. Time is made up of successive moments. The quality of eternity is its simultaneousness.

Eternity is the opposite of time. It signifies a new state of things, a different condition; it denotes timelessness, that is, the absence of time.

Many think that the past is irrevocable. It is to us, but not to our God. There is no such thing as time succession to Him. He can deal with our past or our future as easily as our present, for it is all alike present to Him. He means to teach us that since He calls Himself the “I AM,” He dwells in an eternal now, although this may be difficult for us to apprehend. There is enough of the ruins of our original state left in us to get some light from this astounding fact of God’s eternity. This is what He means to tell us when the Word says that “with whom is no variableness, neither shadow which is caused by turning” (James 1:17, literal rendering). There is no temporal movement in God, no transitoriness, no shadows. He is a glorious, bright, unchanging Reality.

The verse in 2 Peter 3:8 is meant to teach us the same truth: “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” It takes just such a temporal expression to convey the idea to us that time conditions do not prevail in God’s absolute domain.

It is clearly taught in the Scriptures that the ages have not only a beginning but also an end. We have already shown even if the ages or time continued forever that that would not be eternity. The use of the plural “ages” shows that some end before another or others begin.

If one has seen the absolute difference between time and eternity, he will understand that making time endless, we do not get eternity, for eternity means the absence of time, viz., timelessness. Eternity in its absolute sense only obtains when time ceases. An old writer puts the matter clearly:

“Whatever suffers the condition of time, even tho it never began to be, and
should never cease to be, yet it can not be called eternal. For it does not
comprehend and the embrace whole at once; it has lost yesterday, and has
not yet gained tomorrow.”

There is no word in the Bible, nor in the nature of the case can there be, for a “forever” or an “eternity” of time, because time ends when God becomes “all in all” and then only is there the full eternity.

The scientific world has been somewhat startled by the theory of relativity which Dr. Einstein has recently promulgated. It is largely acknowledged that by this theory alone can many of the new problems of light and electro-dynamics find solution. Without making any pronouncement on this subject, the author may be permitted to point out an analogy which may apply to his own field. He is convinced that the consistent recognition of the difference between time and eternity will accomplish for Biblical problems all that the new theory promises to do for natural science.

“The term relativity refers to time and space; according to Galileo and Newton, time and space were absolute entities and the moving systems of the universe were dependent on this absolute time and space. On this conception was built the science of mechanics. The resulting formulas sufficed for all motions of a slow nature; it was found, however, that they would not conform to the rapid notions apparent in electro-dynamics.”

…We also know from Heb. 1:8, in the original, of the close connection of “the age of the ages” and the Millennium. It reads in the literal Greek, ''But to the Son (He says) Thy throne O God, (is) for the Age of theAge." In this verse it implies that the grandest age of all springs forth from the millennial age, which is often spoken of as the age for Israel as a nation. Hence we think of these two ages and only two as the supreme ages in God’s economy. As far as God’s revelation of the ages is concerned these two ages are The Ages par excellence that lie in the future. Eternity in its absolute sense does not emerge till after these two ages are ended. This idiomatic use of two ages being called supreme, by styling them "the ages of the ages,” is paralleled in more than one place in Scripture.

…A similar construction is found in Lev. 21:22. With this key the two future ages are found to be the most glorious ages of all. The theory of “ages tumbling on ages” or an infinite series of ages is purely imaginary. These are the two definite, final ages and always have the definite article before them. Time comes to an end when the ages end and eternity, with God “all in all,” becomes an accomplished reality.

1 Like

What do you mean by “in the original”? No original manuscript of any part of the New Testament, exists.

It reads in the literal Greek, ''But to the Son (He says) Thy throne O God, (is) for the Age of theAge."

Which literal Greek? Papyrus 114 that dates previous to A.D. 300, has only “Your thone, O God (is)” [or it might be better translated “God (is) your throne”] “into the age”.

There is one other manuscript dated in the same century that does have "into the age of the age."

Who can say which of the two was actually written by the author of Hebrews?

There are over 6,000 early manuscript copies or portions of the Greek New Testament in existence today. When we include the Latin Vulgate and other early versions, we have over 24,000 early copies or portions of the New Testament (twice that many when including quotes by early church fathers). Some of these date only twenty to thirty years from the original autographs. By comparison, of works by Plato and Aristotle very few copies exist at all, and those were written 1,200 to 1,400 years after the autographs. 14 According to a former director of the British Museum,

The interval then between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established. 15

The Chester Beatty Papyrus II is the earliest piece of the New Testament known to exist. This contains most of Paul’s letters copied circa AD 100.

The John Rylands Manuscript contains part of the Gospel of John copied in AD 130. It can be found in the John Rylands Library of Manchester, England.

The Codex Vaticanus is a Greek copy of the entire Old Testament and most of the New Testament. Copied between the years 325 and 350 16 , the Codex Vaticanus has resided in the Vatican’s library since 1481 as one of the most trustworthy witnesses to the New Testament text. 17

The Codex Sinaiticus was discovered in the Mt. Sinai Monastery in 1859 by Dr. Constantin Von Tischendorf. It was penned circa AD 375-400 and contains all of the New Testament and most of the Old Testament. It was presented to the Russian Czar and in 1933 was bought by England. Today, it is in the British Museum in London.

The Codex Washingtonianus may be found in the Smithsonian Institution, having been written about AD 450. It contains the complete four Gospels.

The Bodmer Papyri and Bodmer Papyri II are manuscripts dating from AD 150 to 200. These various parts of the New Testament, discovered in Egypt, now exist in the Bodmer Library of World Literature. Other significant collections include the Codex Alexandrinus which is an Egyptian text circa AD 450, the Codex Ephraemi , and the Oxyrhynchus Papyri .

Notable Latin versions of scripture include the Itala Version completed around AD 200 in the North Africa region, the Wurzburg Palimpsest Codex circa AD 450, and the Lyons Codex from about AD 650. The most famous Latin version is Jerome’s Vulgate from AD 390-404.

1 Like

God is love: The Case for Biblical Universalism

BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM: The Purest Expression of the Gospel!

1 Like

It doesn’t matter how many manuscript copies of the Greek NT there are. Most of them are incorrect in many verses. It is much more likely that the manuscripts copied prior to A.D. 300 coincide with what the NT writers actually wrote.

I am blessed to possess a book which contains copies of ALL extant Greek manuscripts of the NT which were copied prior to A.D. 300. It is one of my most treasured books. I consult it whenever there is a question about what was actually written.

So do you think that director was correct in that assessment?

Consider 1 John 5:7 as found in the AV:

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

This verse is not found in ANY Greek manuscript dating prior to A.D 1600. It was doubtless added by someone who wanted to get Trinitarianism into the New Testament. Yet it is found in Textus Receptus from which the King James Bible was translated.

FL, we HAVE TO discern what was truly written by the NT authors, and not presume that all Greek manuscripts are so close to one another, that any one of them is valid.

Dear Paidion: It would seem to me, the followers of the Lamb must know His voice in the inner sanctum. Original copies (of the copies of the copies) may fall short, the anointing of the Spirit does not.

One question: how do you know your book of extant Greek manuscripts are prior 300 A.D.?

There are experts who have the means of dating these manuscripts—not to the very year, but approximately.

The book I have is entitled, “The Text of the Earliest New Testament Greek Manuscripts.” The book is edited by Phillp W. Comfort, and David P. Barrett. The approximate date is given for each manuscript. For example, Papyrus 66 (housed at Geneva, Switzerland) is dated “the middle of the second century” (about A.D. 150).

There is a section in the Introduction which reads, “We chose A.D. 300 as our terminus ad quem because New Testament manuscript production changed radically after the persecution under Diocletian (A.D. 303-305)…”

Also in the Introduction, the ways in which manuscripts are dated,is described.

The problem with that is that there are many diverse beliefs—whose believers all claim to their enlightenment as coming to them through the Spirit. Yet these beliefs are not consistent with one another. Thus at least some of these believers must have been mistaken in thinking that the Spirit revealed these things to them.

Dear Paidion: much thanks for your response.

The “experts”, whoever they are may fail, the anointing does not. In the final analysis one must know Him & rest with absolute assurance in His guiding Hand.

1 Like

The Fatherhood Of Abba

“I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things shall be subject to Him and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor 15:24-28). For me, this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside of the love of God at the end of time, it means that one man has defeated the love of God—and that is impossible. Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of our God. If God was no more than a King or judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if His enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out. But God is not only king and Judge, God is Father—He is indeed Father more than anything else. No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family. The only triumph a father can know is to have all of his family back home again.” –Dr. William Barclay-

“Thou, O Father, wilt not be angry with thy child because he thought—and tried to bid others to think just and noble things of thee; though, O Savior, wilt not frown at him because he trusted in the infinitude of thy compassion; and thou, O Holy Spirit, whose image is the soft stealing of the dew and the golden hovering of the dove, wilt know that if he erred it was because he fixed his eyes, not on the glaring and baleful meteors of anathematizing orthodoxy, but on the star of Bethlehem and the clouds that began to shine above the coming of the Lord; and that—if perchance he erred—the light which led astray was light from Heaven.” –Canon F.W. Farrar-

“The Spirit of the Lord speaks within my soul and says, “Within the breast of every man is the divine image of God (living God), in whose image and likeness he was made, that sin is a perversion and sickness an imposter, and that the grace and power of God through the Holy Ghost delivers man from all bondage and darkness, and man in all his nature rises into union and communion with God and becomes one with Him in the truest sense.” –John G. Lake-)

“Give them not hell, but hope and courage. Preach the everlasting love of God.”– John Murray-

“The fact remains—we are God’s offspring, created from a foundation of goodness that has gone wrong. History since the Garden is the gradual story of how God is slowly putting that wrongness right…and will continue to do so.” –Michael Phillips-

“For myself I can say, that if there is a God, and he is such a being as [the Universalist] describes, I can bow before him and give him all my heart. He says God is love, made the world in love, and in perfect wisdom, and well adapted to serve the divine purpose. He then made a family, all of them have sinned, and some of them have fallen very low, but God is determined, according to [the Universalist], to stand by His family, every one of them, let come what will come, till he makes all of them respectable. This standing by His family, as every true Father ought to do, is what I like in [the Universalist’s]idea of God. But if there is a God, and he has created a family and will at last turn against most of them, and in burning wrath cast them into Hell forever, as [traditional Christianity] describe(s), I should hate him—he is not as good as I am, for I propose to stand by my family and every member of it for as long as I live. It is an insult to ask me to love and worship a God who is guilty of doing what we would detest in an earthly father.” –Robert Ingersoll

“I believe that justice and mercy are simply one and the same thing. [I believe] such is the mercy of God that he will hold his children in the consuming fire of his distance until they pay the uttermost farthing, until they drop the purse of selfishness with all the dross that is in it, and rush home to the Father and the Son, and the many brethren, rush inside the center of the life-giving fire whose outer circles burn. I believe that no hell will be lacking which would help the just mercy of God to redeem his children.” - George MacDonald-

Suppose it were offered to the father of three children to take his choice whether two should be received into heaven and one condemned to Hell, or the whole should be annihilated unto death. What would a parent say? Where is the father who would dare secure the bliss of two children at the cost of the endless misery of one? Which of the family would he select as the victim, whose undying pain should secure his brother’s joy? Is there any one living who would not suffer himself and his children to sink back again into nothingness, rather than purchase heaven at such a price? --Thomas Allin, Christ Triumphant-

“…Nothing can be lost that is not first owned. Just as a parent is compelled by civil law to be responsible for his family and his property, so the Creator --by His own divine law–in compelled to take care of the children He has created. And that means not only caring for the good children, but for the bad ones and lost ones as well. So the word lost came to be for Mrs. Smith, a term of greatest comfort. If a person is a “lost sinner” it only means that he is temporarily separated from the Good Shepherd who owns him. The Shepherd is bound by all duties of ownership to go after all those who are lost until they are found.” -Catherine Marshall (Beyond Ourselves)

“God will seek us – how long? Until he finds us. And when he’s found the last little shriveling rebellious soul and has depopulated hell, then death will be swallowed up in victory, and Christ will turn over all things to the Father that he may be all and in all. Then every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” -Clarence Jordan - (founder of Koinonia Community)-

“It is often remarked by those who oppose the doctrine of universal salvation, that if God is the Savior of all men, then there is no difference between the saint and the sinner, the believer and unbeliever. Those who make this remark, seem to forget, that while God is declared to be the Savior of all men, he is also said to be ESPECIALLY the Savior of the believer. Though it is true, that God is the Savior of all, yet a little more attention would teach you, that all along, in Scripture, there is a salvation held forth as the SPECIAL PROPERTY of the believer, in which the unbeliever can have no part or lot. Though all shall be saved with an everlasting salvation, yet the believer ALONE can enjoy this special salvation.” -Rev. I. D. Williamson-

If this is not the post of all time, well I digress… :grin:

Or maybe, just maybe… God works outside of our current understanding. Just a thought.

FL - that was a heap of hope in that last post. Thanks for that.

“No more let sins and sorrows grow,
nor thorns infest the ground;
he comes to make his blessings flow
far as the curse is found,
far as the curse is found,
far as, far as the curse is found.”-Isaac Watts-

Dear DaveB2.0: You are indeed correct, the declarations of these righteous members of Father’s House provide us with exceeding hope indeed! Yes, a heap of hope!



God’s Silence 6

Adam’s Punishment 6

Cain’s Punishment 8

The Antediluvians 9

The Deluge 9

Sodom and Gomorrah 10

The Testimony of Scholars 12

The Promise to Adam 15

The Promise to Abraham 16

The Promises to Obedient 19

The Threats to Wicked 21

Gathered to their Fathers 22

The Spirit Returns to God 23

The Fate of Amnon 23

Knowledge of God Gives Peace 25

God’s Anger is Limited 25

God’s Mercy is Unlimited 27

The Testimony of the Prophets 27

Universal Obedience 28

Man’s Infirmity Doubts God’s Goodness 28

Universal Dominion 29

The Prophet Isaiah 29

God’s Word Conquers 30

Jeremiah 31

Hosea 31

Micah 32

Daniel 32

The Wise Woman 32

A Refiner 33

The Name Jesus 34

The Word Gospel 35

The First Christmas Anthem 35

John the Baptist 36

An Incident and its Lesson 36

Be Like God 38

The Lord’s Prayer 40

The Universal Fatherhood 40

The Good Samaritan 45

The Gospel Leaven 46

The Jewish Leaven 46

All the Lost are to be Saved 47

Ninety and Nine (Poem) 49

Christ Will Accomplish His Mission 50

The Resurrection 56

The Resurrection to Damnation 58

The Nature of Punishment 65

The Prayer of Jesus for His Murderers 66

God the Creator 68

God’s Holiness 69

God’s Mercy 69

God’s Justice 70

God’s Omniscience 73

God’s Omnipotence 74

God’s Love 75

God’s Attributes Unlimited 77

God’s Power Unlimited 78

God’s Wisdom Unlimited 78

God’s Love Unlimited 79

God’s Will, Pleasure, Purpose, Promise and Oath 80

You Must be Born Again 88

A Conditional Promise Fulfilled 88

Sin Burned, Sinners Saved 88

Every Soul Worth Saving 88

Comfort for All 88

Heaven’s Joys Certain 89

The Substance of Things Hoped For 89

The Wickedest Saved 89

The Image of God 90

Paul’s Hope 92

The Glad Tidings of God 92

The Universe shall be Delivered from Sin 93

What God will not do 94

What God will do 94

Sin, Satan, Death and Hell Destroyed 94

All Shall be Righteous 95

All Destined to God 97

The People were Astonished 98

Universal Pardon and Obedience 98

Christ Cancels Adam 99

A Healthful Doctrine 99

No More Sorrow 100

Universal Obedience Prophesied 100

The Universal Propitiation 100

Their Works Follow Them 100

The Building of God Sure 102

God Hates Sin 102

God All in All 102

God’s Glory 103

God A Universal Savior 103

Why Paul was Persecuted 104

All are to be Righteous 104

The Final Consummation 105


1 Like

Of course He does. But how does that fact relate to my post? And what is there about my post that led you to sarcastically call it “the post of all time”?

You don’t understand… I was and am on your side as to the post. Sorry our history has made you suspect of my every post. I will try to rectify that.

You said:

Paidion said:
The problem with that is that there are many diverse beliefs—whose believers all claim to their enlightenment as coming to them through the Spirit. Yet these beliefs are not consistent with one another. Thus at least some of these believers must have been mistaken in thinking that the Spirit revealed these things to them.

And I agree, also stating this was one of the greatest posts I’ve seen. Simple as that. :wink:

I like you. :smile:

1 Like

Sorry I misinterpreted you, Chad.

No problem. Don Love you, and we will tally as stuff happens.