The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Salvation Mysteries

Bad news: there is a hell/Gehenna/Hades. It continues to this day as a POW camp for those who die in their unbelief, still captive to the devil.

Good news: hell and its occupants, along with death, will be thrown into the second death (Rev. 20:14, 1 Cor. 15:26, 55), the temporary, remedial lake of fire (as to it being temporary and remedial, see “For Further Consideration” at the end of this post)—and death will be put to death, and disappear. Those in the lake of fire will all eventually repent and surrender to Jesus because of the liberating and healing work of God’s fire of love; and one by one they will come out of it, and go through the open gates of the New Jerusalem to take the water of life freely being offered to them by the Holy Spirit and the Bride (Rev. 22:17).

Only a preterist, who does not believe in the futurity of the book of Revelation (or someone who does not believe in the reality of the devil and his ongoing, deluding influence), could suggest that there is no hell. Recently in another thread I laid out some key disagreements with preterism.

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This must be from Hezekiah chapter 5 verse 13 :wink:

Gehenna and Hades are TWO distinct and different things and not one and the same.

When the zombies from Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9) get here…I doubt everyone, will be singing this song! :wink:

I think saying “there is no hell” and “hell is what one might experience, standing in the presence of God”…is a matter of semantics. Both really affirm, there is no literal place called hell.

Assume God is like baking soda. If water mixes with it… it’s a nice, stomach settling drink. If vinegar mixes with it, you get a volatile reaction.

Similarly, folks say people “sleep” after death. The Lakota and other shamanic visionaries, tell us differently. The spirits are all around us. Some eventually go to the “happy hunting grounds” or some likely facility, whatever that is.

And maybe…just maybe…those Brazilian churches and Native America Churches… taking peyote and/ or ayahuasca , during ceremony…might be seeing reality, as it really is…and the sacrament and/or medicine, is like a TV set…tuning to the right channel.

Sometimes a Holy Fool is like Curly Stooge…they appear to say or do things, that appear “off the wall”…but on closer examination…they might not be so “off the wall”, after all.

Just as an aside - what is the ‘holy’ in ‘holy fool’?

Clearly Dave it’s a typo and should read… ‘Wholly’ :rofl:

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Check the link Holy Fool, for the answer…if it doesn’t satisfy you, I’ll try to find - an answer for you!

But think of it like this. If there’s anything “spiritual” about me, I disguise it. By pretending to be, a fool or idiot. Just like Detective Colombo…who is really extremely intelligent…pretends to be a moron, to throw his adversaries off guard.

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Tongue in cheek, Randy, just joshin’ ya pal. I know and respect the office of holy fool!! There is an important function for HF’s.

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The legendary Lieutenant Columbo!

It’s part of the Eastern Catholic (agreed to by the RC church, that sanctions EC teaching) / Eastern Orthodox traditions…that heaven and hell is equally, being in the presence of God.

It boils down to what Anglican New Testament scholar and bishop, NT Wright…talks about using abstract and concrete language…of course, NT Wright has a different perspective on hell…not entirely at odds, with the EO / EC conception…

The book of Revelation…is a prime example, of when concrete and abstract language - is being used…We get anything from the “Left Behind” series…to the zombies of Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)…Yes, folks! I can find verses in Revelation, that can refer to them!

Bible Verses About Zombies

Yepper. how many walk down the sidewalk Christians have never in their wildest dreams been informed on what the word ‘hell’ means or where it comes from?

As far as I’m concerned, NOONE knows what happens to us after we leave our physical bodies. The writers of the Bible didn’t know either and if one interprets it to mean so, then I’d say he is misunderstanding the words. Of course there is hell ON EARTH, and the biblical authors are telling us about it so that we don’t make the same mistakes and end up there.

And hopefully…we won’t be singing this song then!

Hermano said:
Only a preterist, who does not believe in the futurity of the book of Revelation (or someone who does not believe in the reality of the devil and his ongoing, deluding influence), could suggest that there is no hell.
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Only a person who seems to have spent a considerable amount of time on this Evangelical Universalist forum and has been exposed to many different views but still has his or her hand in the crotch of evangelicalism would make such a stupid preposterous statement. You can believe what you believe, but the evidence is:
There is no Hell, and to double down… there is nor Devil/Satan/ person who rules your life.

God Gave us free will and expects us to use it in a manner beholding to HIM.

The Devil is us…

Yes, I agree.

True, I agree, first off, there is the understanding of the historical position, but it could be that the biblical authors are showing us we need to respond to those that are in trials… Those around us… our ministries so to speak. Do you agree?

MM, Yes. I agree.

I also agree with your statement here. To me, all the talk about some other- worldly evil being having control over our minds is superstitious nonsense.

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The devil is not us: the devil is a fallen archangel, “the god of this age” (2 Cor. 4:4), who has the whole world under his control (1 John 5:19). And he’s not going away by vehement, unbiblical assertions: that deceiver is going away only when he is finally cast into the lake of fire, “where the beast and the false prophet are” (Rev. 20:10). Until then, we are to resist the devil (James 4:7), and to be alert and sober-minded about the danger he presents to each and every one of us (1 Peter 5:8)!

MM, I don’t know what you think “evangelicalism” is (let alone the crotch of it), or what forum you think you’re in; but from my observation, most people here at The Evangelical Universalist, are, fittingly, “evangelical” —‘who believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and his atonement; the need for a personal conversion or “born again” experience in receiving Jesus and his gift of salvation; the importance of evangelism; and the Bible as God’s revelation to humanity.’ (Wikipedia)

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So what was happening when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness? Someone came and made some offers. Who was that?. Its an open book test. Matthew 4.
You cant just dismiss the fact that Satan was described in the bible as real. He was described in the bible as real. For you to say there is no Satan is saying the scripture is baloney in that claim. If thats what your saying so be it. But you cant just dogmatically tell people they are wrong about the devils reality and act like theres nothing in the bible about it. Did I mention Satan was described profusely in the bible as real?

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That Satan IS real in the bible doesn’t automatically necessitate an ethereal being… Peter is a case in point (Mt 16:23). A biblical satan however was anyone in opposition… even Yahweh himself via his angel was a satan in opposing Balaam (Num 22:22; 32).

That Satan IS real in the bible doesn’t automatically necessitate an ethereal being…

Yes it does. The reason is that when a proper name is used in conjunction with personal pronouns such as he and you to stand in place of the proper name…you have an actual being.

Jesus said “If Satan casts out Satan then HE is divided against HIMSELF.”
Matt 12:26, Mark 3:26, Luke 11:18

Peter is a case in point ( Mt 16:23 ).

Jesus rebuked Peter by calling out Satan who was in fact sifting Peter as wheat to see if he could find something in Him to use as a betrayal of Jesus. Jesus prayed for him that his faith would not fail.
Peter in that case was reacting with carnal defiance against Jesus declaration of his impending death. (Luke 22:31-32) Peter was being tempted by selfish ambition and greed. Peter imagined If Jesus died then he would not have his big throne upon which to rule in the coming Kingdom. There was a lot at stake for Peter because Satan had been sowing beautiful vanities in his mind.
Satan entered into Judas (Luke 22:3) instead and the conspiracy commenced.

A biblical satan however was anyone in opposition… even Yahweh himself via his angel was a satan in opposing Balaam ( Num 22:22; 32 ).

That is an exploitation of a linguistic coincidence to make an otherwise unsubstantiated claim.
In Hebrew MANY names were derived from common words or phrases.
Jacobs name meant supplanter and deceiver. His name was used as a common verb. See Str. H6117 Aqab. To supplant, to catch the heel. Yet in the context of identifying the Son of Isaac Aqab was a proper noun indicating a man.
That single isolated text providing a Hebrew root word which also formed Satans proper name is insufficient to dispose of the overwhelming personification of an actual being both in the OT and the NT.

Furthermore if satan were merely a quality of character or particular course of action only, then Jesus own words become absurdities. Jesus said that hell was prepared for the devil (diabolos) and HIS angels. This reference by the Messiah to a ruler/leader of a host of evil angels is corroborated in multiple places by prophets and apostles. Paul spoke of warring not against flesh and blood but instead a hierarchy of celestial powers aligned by rank together in evil purpose (Eph 6:12).
Isaiah 14:12 reveals clues about Satans previous identity as Lucifer the angel of God.
See also the Prince of Persia resisting the angel sent to Daniel. (Dan 10) Who can resist an angel? Another angel. The Prince of Persia is a title for an evil angel operating in Satans world kingdom. He was organized and delegated jurisdictions. In the same way Michael was called the Prince of Daniels people Israel.

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-The term “Satan” (adversary) appears 53 times (in 46 verses) in the Bible (OT 18x, NT 35x)
-[The additional descriptor “devil” (slanderer) appears only in the New Testament.]

The term “Satan” being directed at Peter (when Peter was inspired by Satan to tempt Jesus, Mt. 16:23) is only one instance out of those 53 times the term is used in the Scriptures. (And of course the term “Satan” does not actually appear in the Numbers 22 story, where you suggest the Angel of the LORD is a type of “Satan.”)

So then, just what class of NON-ethereal adversary was Jesus speaking to in other famous instances (e.g., Mt. 4:8-11) of him speaking with the “devil” or with “Satan,” if not the fallen archangel Lucifer?:

Matthew 4:8-11 (NIV)
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and WORSHIP ME.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”
11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

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