Perhaps you can explain what you think I mean, and then pull together some quotes wherein you think TW spanks the same. Of interest on Schweitzer… have a look at the last paragraph on pg.223—224 down to note 96, and actually read note 96 at the bottom of the page.
Yes, Sir! Right away!!. Wait - I’ve already read it twice (second time through the book). 
I asked YOU if you parted company with TW on the nature of the KOG. Do you?
Well the short answer is I’m not sure (kind of doubt it) but it sounds like you think so… so it’d be easy, I’d imagine, for you to point that out… given you’ve identified something, apparently
Darn it, I think we’re on the same page after all. (Literally - see below) .Sigh. I thought we were in for an apocalyptic online battle. Anyway, I re-read your entries above and I think I misunderstood what you were saying.
In the attachment below, which I unashamedly photographed from the book, you would I think agree with #3? For those that don’t have the book, TW is giving the main lines of eschatalogical interpretation, from Bultmann, Schweitzer , et. alia.
So, my cheeks (all four) are red. It is easier by far to ask someone to explain what they mean than to assume you know what they mean.
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C’mon - It’s 3:05 A.M. ‘over there’ - you’re not awake yet??
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I sympathize with your sense of a NT shift to a less carnal expectation, and you may have less fleshly eyes than I and the consensus of most readers But when you say that the consummation anticipated in the NT, or the expected “nature of the kingdom” was “not external,” can you elaborate on what you mean by ‘external’? Was the fullness of God’s reign expected to include an external creation where sin and evil still flourish?
Lol… we are indeed on the same page (208) 
I agree with TW on #3 with a dash of #4 as per Borg, and I would suggest might likely also include the likes of Andrew Perriman.
Ok… so by “external” or fleshly or carnal I simply meant “this-worldly” — IOW, what Jesus was offering was NOT a literal political/militaristic overthrow and rout of Rome by an insurgent King Jesus (Jn 6:15). Thus when Jesus said… “my kingdom is not of this world” the world in view wasn’t of the material/political/militaristic nature but rather covenantal — Israel’s God was a covenant making and covenant keeping God and the old order that was broken, incessantly by Israel, was being replaced.
Jesus nullified sin in terms of it being a barrier between God and His people… what the high priests’ did continually in covering sin Jesus in finality removing it… “once for all” — again, THAT in terms of the barrier sin had been. To sin per sé is simply to err… we can all do that with ease, but the sin condition that stood over and against man in terms of a barrier to God no longer exists.
As for “evil” — there is no mystical ethereal essence, power or being ‘out there’ manipulating and pulling strings, NO. Evil is simply… the foul actions of a corrupt heart generated from one over and against another — something fully within our purview to control; we are beyond the juvenile… “the devil made me do it” mentality, or at least we should be.
That’s right… we either live in the liberty of remittance (vs:18) or we deal with the consequences life then inevitably throws up as a direct result of our own continuing stupidity — and such remains the case til we wake up and get our act together (1Cor 6:12; 10:23). We can’t re-crucify Jesus.
[quote=“davo, post:36, topic:13374, full:true”]
Davo: “To sin per sé is simply to err… we can all do that with ease…
Evil is simply… the foul actions of a corrupt heart generated from one over and against another.”
Bob: I completely agree that Jesus did not propose “a military rout of Rome.” But am I understanding aright that you see the Bible’s vision of the consummation of God’s full reign as a creation where sin and the evil of foul actions ultimately do indeed flourish?
NO… definitely not! As I understand it… the cultural/societal evolution of man will see the eventual minimisation of such — this is what Christ instigated and made possible — man is a long time in grasping grace, but it’s always there.
As I see it… this life populates the next. There will always be horizontal infractions, aka sins, committed against one another (hopefully becoming more minimal) where confession remedies such (Jas 5:16); but Jesus ALREADY once for all removed the vertical sin barrier between Himself and man. Sin has no traction beyond death… Rom 6:7.
Thanks, I take it then that you don’t see the “fullness of God’s reign” in this sense as brought by Jesus in the first century, but see greater practical victory over evil as yet future.
I like the optimism of your perception of the direction that things are evolving, and wish I had more of that.
Not quite Bob… it’s not a case of either/or BUT both; IOW… we have one BECAUSE OF the other!
I agree that we will have future victory because of the already established victory. And I may be confused about your semantics and use of “both.” But my impression is that one can only say that God’s rule (“reign”) was already here in its’ “fullness” in AD70, if what you mean by such completion is consistent with a creation where sin and evil still flourish.
And I sense that most of the church was more justified in perceiving that the ultimate Biblical hope looks for a “greater victory over evil” that remains “yet future” in its’ consummation, and a day when sin and evil do not flourish as they do in this present age.
I agree with that, and it is a point of real difference in mindset and worldview among the contributors here.
As an evangelical universalist, while I believe that a person must be born again to see the kingdom of God (John 3:3), I also believe in the opportunity for post-mortem repentance; that the lake of fire lasts only for an age; and that the “second death” will indeed come to an end when its last resident receives Christ, comes through the gates of the heavenly city which are always open (Rev. 21:25), and takes the always freely available water of life (Rev. 22:17).
I agree with Davo that Jesus has fully taken care of the sin problem for everyone through his death.
And I agree with presumably everyone in this forum that the kingdom of heaven is inexorably spreading, and will ultimately overcome all evil and rebellion and death:
He told them another parable. “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened.” Matthew 13:33.
But as a futurist, I recognize that in prophecy we are warned of some terrible speed bumps yet to come on the highway to heaven.
I certainly believe that the rebel Lucifer (the god of this age) and his host of fallen angels tirelessly promote deception and sin and rebellion among men, against God. For example,
Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.” Gen. 11:4.
God frustrated man on that occasion; nevertheless, the Golden Age of Man, with a great city, will yet come:
Revelation 17:15-18 (NKJV)
15 Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”
Although the (New Age) idea seems to make sense—of everything getting better and better, as far as one can see, off into the far horizon, as mankind joins together in unity and understanding—Jesus has said otherwise:
Matt. 13:30, 40-42
“Let both grow together until the harvest . At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.
“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Dave Hunt was mostly right when he said in his book, The Seduction of Christianity (1986):
Two factions are now emerging within the church. One side adheres to the belief that an apostasy is coming for the church in the last days, and with it a great tribulation and God’s judgment for the world. We are to rescue as many as we can before it is too late, calling them to citizenship in heaven. On the other side are those, equally sincere, who see the primary call of the church as solving social, economic, and political problems. Although they are also concerned to see souls saved, the conversion of the masses provides the means for taking over the world for Christ, taking dominion back from Satan, and thereby establishing the kingdom in order that Christ might return as king to reign at last.
I say Hunt was “mostly right” because I don’t believe God is going to send judgment on the world, but I believe He is warning us about coming apostasy, and later violence from Satan, as the devil resists his eviction:
2 Thessalonians 2 (NKJV)
The Great Apostasy
2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
I would say, like Hunt, that all the believers of both factions are “equally sincere.” But they can’t both be equally right.
Nevertheless, there are exciting works ahead for the Church, superlative times for those who love God. And we know that where sin abounds, grace superabounds! (Romans 5:20)
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H - I’ve seen that sentence a number of times from different people here.
Can you tell me exactly what it means? I’m confused.
Thanks
I didn’t mean to sound glib about it.
-I believe mankind was universally reconciled to God through the cross (Rom. 5:10, Col. 1:20-22). It should be highlighted that we were not reconciled through our repentance, but “through the death of His Son.”
-And that the legalistic devil was defeated and disarmed at the cross, his weapon of “dogma” nailed to it (Col. 2:14-15).
-And that, as per Isaiah 53, the Messiah TOOK mankind’s iniquities and their consequences (53:5, `avon, “consequence of or punishment for iniquity”), and that he, the Prince of Peace, GAVE us his righteousness (53:11) and his shalom —variously translated as “health,” “prosperity,” “safety,” “friendship,” “contentment,” and “peace.”
Of course, this is a huge topic. And so is the question of why everyone is not currently enjoying all these benefits. But it must have to do with believing and receiving on our end, because on his end, Jesus said, “It is finished!” (Jn. 19:30)
Thanks. I didn’t think you were glib at all, btw.
There was an earlier go-round on another thread concerning ‘reconciliation’ and I confess that, will all the effort I have put into understanding the ramifications of it, it still eludes me. But that is NOT this topic so I’ll leave it be.
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(1) CONFLICTING ACCOUNTS OF THE WOMEN’S FIRST VISIT TO THE TOMB:
a. They find it empty and conclude that someone has removed Christ’s body (John 20:1-2).
b. They find the stone rolled away and encounter an unnamed “young man” sitting inside the tomb (Mark 16:7. This “young man” might be the same “young man” who is identified by his unique robe in Mark 14:41-52.
c. They experience an earthquake and see 1 and only 1 angel roll back the stone and sit upon it outside the tomb (Matthew 28:2).
d. 2 (not 1!) shining angels appear to them only after they discover the empty tomb (Luke 24:2-5).
Unless these responses all happened precisely simultaneously , I see them as complimentary rather then in conflict. They don’t seem to be mutually exclusive , just that each account adds more detail to events that happened over a period of some time.
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