Davo, since the time our ancestors ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, the (commonly undiscerned) filter of bipolarity is THE default filter which people use when they read the Scriptures by the letter, instead of by the Spirit (that is, by the unipolar filter of agapē).
This wrong view of God as bipolar is the reason many people give as much, or more, weight to the particular Scriptures which indicate God is bipolar, over the Scriptures which indicate He is actually unipolar. For example,
Bipolar Scriptures (The “LORD” is not onlyloving, but also vindictive, legalistic, and violent…like Satan):
Genesis 12:3
I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse;
Exodus 4:24-25
24 At a lodging place on the way, the LORD met Moses and was about to kill him.
25 But Zipporah took a flint knife, cut off her son’s foreskin and touched Moses’ feet with it. “Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me,” she said.
Numbers 11:33
But while the meat was still between their teeth and before it could be consumed, the anger of the LORD burned against the people, and he struck them with a severe plague.
Isaiah 63:6
“I trampled the nations in my anger; in my wrath I made them drunk and poured their blood on the ground.”
Habakkuk 3:2
LORD….in wrath remember mercy.
Unipolar Scriptures:
Matthew 5:44-45
But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven . He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Luke 6:28 Bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
Romans 12:14
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.
Romans 12:21
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Hebrews 2:14
SINCE THE CHILDREN have flesh and blood, HE TOO SHARED in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—
1 John 4:8, 16
God IS love.
By wrongly thinking God is fickle and bipolar, people presume He is more of a Judge than a Father: someone who sends them pain in this life, and then perhaps who will send them on to a never-ending torture chamber in the next, because they angered and disappointed Him. Whereas He is actually a loving, gracious Daddy, always reaching out with open arms.
Such bipolar people—with a false, bipolar image of God—are double-minded and ineffective for the Kingdom, and in bondage to fear their whole lives.
When it is inconvenient to one’s theology it is all too easy to do as you do… ignore, explain away, filter out or just plain excise completely said violence attributed to God. “Skeletons in the cupboard” comes to mind and any number of critics notice them and dig them out even if we don’t. “Ah,” we say, “but that’s the OT… the NT is different.” And yet we find in-kind attributable violence in the NT as well. So ok, using your arbitrary bipolar model let’s check out Jesus/God of the NT…
Mt 15:4For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’
Mt 10:34“Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.
Lk 12:49, 51“I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! … Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division.
Lk 19:27But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’”
Lk 22:36Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.
Jn 2:15When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers’ money and overturned the tables.
Jn 3:36He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Acts 12:23Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died.
Rom 1:18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
Rom 13:4For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
2Thess 1:6-9…since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,…
Rev 2:22-23Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
Rev 2:27a‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron; they shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—
Rev 16:19Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
Rev 19:11Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
Rev 19:15Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
There are of course as already mentioned handy EU ways for discounting and dismissing such nuisance texts away, as again has been evidenced many-a-time already on this board by yourself and others… but such is at best hardy credible or at worst just plainly dishonest. I know you maintain that when it came to understanding God near all the OT writers somewhere got it horribly wrong… do you suppose there may be the remotest possibility that on this matter you’ve got it horribly wrong??
By ‘discounting and dismissing’ I assume you mean what others might call ‘interpreting’?
Either way, what’s the point of engaging when you have already stated that you will regard any attempt to interpret these texts differently to yourself, by members of this forum, as “dishonest”.
Well, here’s someone not on this board who talks about you:
No, more like what I actually said… attributing what the text CLEARLY presents as God speaking or doing instead to Satan — I’m guessing John you might call that interpretation??
Just an observation here. I don’t think that psychiatry or psychology, was studied by Adam and Eve, the Jewish people or the New Testament apostles. I don’t think, it was invented then.
Of course its an interpretation. It may not be an exegesis and it may be an extreme interpretation - one I may not share - but it does you no service to label it as a “handy EU way” neglecting the truth that EU is a very broad church with a multitude of interpretations on this matter. Neither does it do you justice to include that text from Luke 19:27 as if that is relevant.
I myself have little doubt that God’s wrath exists and my only enquiry is to the motive/purpose and extent of God’s wrath which I believe is for the welfare of all those made in His image.
Sure, there is killing, starvation, and disease in this fallen world—with more to come; but these are not from God. Contrary to the misunderstanding of the prophets,
“God IS love” (1 John 4:8, 16; agapē: benevolence, good will).
the devil has the power of death, not God (Heb. 2:14); death is an enemy of God (1 Cor. 15:26), not a tool of God.
(So here is where I urge you to camp out a good, long while, Davo.)
We should recognize that Jesus is sarcastically confronting religious hypocrites who “devour widows’ houses.” He is not reaffirming an alleged commandment from his benevolent, kind Father to kill disrespectful children!
Jesus, who perfectly represents his unchanging Father, says,
John 10:10
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
So I say, Jesus takes precedence over Moses.
“Let God be true, and every man a liar” (Romans 3:4).
And regarding the law, we read,
John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Regarding parables, and figurative language:
To paraphrase Richard Murray: the parables are often full of flawed humanity such as “wicked kings” (Luke 18) and “vengeful vineyard owners” (Luke 20) and “evil fathers” (Luke 11). To think that Jesus was trying to attribute these flaws to our Heavenly Father is unthinkable. Nobody would claim that EVERY facet of a figurative story would have to have a precise Heavenly corollary.
God is not a killer. So IF an angel striking this man caused an injury unto death, then it must have been a fallen angel who did it.
You have several fiery quotes from Revelation, so let me just reiterate:
God will not be killing anyone during the Tribulation: He will be wrathfully, violently opposing and impeding the devil and his minions and theirkilling activities —regardless of the sometimes skewed interpretations of the author of Revelation, concerning the violence being done by God.
Psalm 137:8,9
O daughter of Babylon, doomed to be destroyed
blessed shall he be who repays you with what you have done to us!
9 Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones
and dashes them against the rock!
Let me ask: In what sense is this God’s word?
This was inspired by God and approved by Him as showing his will.
This is God’s word to us now, a pattern we should follow
This is what God wants us to believe about him.
It is presenting us with a truth about how that psalmist, and other Israelites who had suffered in the exile, felt when they were feeling bitter. It is no reflection at all on who God is or how we should behave.
During the last election, a reporter was out questioning people on the street, and approached one guy who was holding up a bible sign of some sort; and asked the guy how he would decide to vote. He held up a big bible, folded in his right hand, pointed at it and said “I will vote for whoever believes every word in this book”. He then went on to say not just any bible, or even every KJV, but the specific book he had in his hand. Every word.
Sure, a person can hold that view. Fine. But that person would have to admit, I would think, that it is his choice to hold that view, and he cannot point to the bible and say that ‘the bible says it is infallible’ or the ‘bible says it is the word of God’ because, after all, the word of God is Jesus, and the bible does not claim infallibility. Any word that God speaks IS infallible, but it is a huge step to say that everything in the Bible is God’s word - such as the verses I quoted.
I based that assessment purely on the empirical evidence demonstrated here by a number of prevalent posters on this forum… so yeah, that may not be so representative of your broader EU church — I myself am an inclusionist, so in the paddock next-door.
That text was TOTALLY relevant to the point being made, i.e., that violence is demonstrable in the NT… which has been used, again on this forum, as a supposed counterpoint and in apparent contradistinction to the OT — I simply gave evidence to debunk the claim. As to Jesus’ use of such in that text… it was a parable aka a story, thus a lesson drawing from known reality to make some greater point etc.
I could be wrong… but I’m of the opinion that the reconciliation in Christ changed all that — that’s why, for me as a pantelist, I see the whole shebang of AD30—70 as the bookends of God’s final redemptive act on behalf of humanity.
Yes Dave… Psa 137 is a song, a lament, and dirge. Only the uninitiated (say like the rabid atheist or shallow-minded believer who follows them down that same reactionary rabbit-trail) tie that text to somehow being reflective of a supposed divine sanction; it was a retributive expression reflecting the depths of their own catastrophe… again, albeit brought upon themselves because of their own disobedience.
In Revelation 16 God torments people through the plagues in an effort to get them to repent and I would imagine some would also die as a result of them and the earthquake of verse 18.
The trumpets and vials are an attempt to get people to repent during the tribulation. He does kill people through His angels because of their allegiance to the anti-Christ and their refusal to repent. Revelation 9 is just one example.
Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
God doesn’t threaten, or send plagues, or kill, to get people to repent. His modus operandi to bring about repentance is kindness (Romans 2:4). God warns about what the devil will do: He doesn’t threaten about terrible things–things which He Himself would never do. And He always invites repentance from sin, and offers rescue to people whom the legalistic devil has come in to afflict and destroy, through the open door provided to the devil by their sins.
As I argued in my essay to initiate this thread, I believe the prophets were mistaken whenever they ascribed “the sword, famine, and plague” to God:
The four angels you reference are fallen angels, who are in rebellion against God: they are NOT serving God.
As I indicate on my pdf chart of Revelation (RevChart1997BloomfieldSeiss.pdf), the “trumpets sounded” and the “vials poured” are one and the same event, described from two different perspectives—seen from above as trumpets, and from below as vials. So regarding the sixth plague, Rev. 9:13-17 parallels Rev. 16:12-16.
Eventually, two hundred million evil spirits will gain release from the area of the River Euphrates, which is the very area where fallen angels incited sinful relations with mankind (eventually followed by the devil sending the Flood of Noah); and it’s the same area where later, after the Flood, mankind rebelled against God in the construction of the Tower of Babel.
God is always an active “disallower" and disabler of evil. God’s only posture toward evil is to disallow it on every level. So these imprisoned spirits will remain imprisoned only until the great Day of the Lord (Jude 6-7). Then they will be able to come out and join the “party” because mankind will provide them an open door through its wide scale sin, even as happened before the Flood of Noah. Joel described these spirits as “locusts.” But unfortunately Joel misbelieved that they are sent by God (Joel 2:1-11).
Regarding the next plague, the seventh, I have said this:
God is not bloodthirsty, but the devil is. And Antichrist’s followers will become willing killers.
As to the idea that Muslims will be the biggest antagonists of the last days: Muslims are not the only ones with a messed up view of “God.” In my initial essay (at the beginning of this thread), I referenced Christian adherents of “dominion theology.”
As an example of someone who confuses God for the devil, Mike Bickle of the International House of Prayer (IHOP) in Kansas City is a well known evangelical in the New Apostolic Reformation’s dominionist movement. I offer the following revealing YouTube video excerpt of Bickle for your consideration. In this clip, Bickle teaches that God is preparing the Church to kill people—literally, not figuratively. As he says in it,
“I’m talking about the prayer of faith that heals; and I’m talking about the prayer of faith thatkills”:
(Watch especially right after the 4:30 minute mark of this “IHOP TV podcast 3.” And please note:
