That is why I reject your summary of scripture. Love moved the Father to send his Son to the cross to die for you. Now you must make a choice to accept his love. God does not force people to accept his love…he gives them a choice. God provided a way for everyone to have an intimate relationship with Him through his Son, Jesus. Believe and receive the gift of salvation or doubt and do without. God will not violate your will.
you said:
You believe God’s purpose is not actually OFFER salvation (which is accomplished without fail).
Would I be right about that?
Aaron37: ?? God provided salvation. Now you must positively respond by faith to appropriate the salvation God has done by grace.
God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.
Are you one of the whosoever? God does not save the world by forcing you to love him and accept his salvation…you become his child and apart of this salvation by being one of the whosoevers who accepts this free gift of salvation.
Yes I agree with John 3:16 and many other verses such as “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved via him.” Now did he send his Son to save the world or did he send his Son to offer salvation?
The paradaim by which you evolve around is based ONLY upon certain scriptures and DENIES particular scriptures which do not fit:**Romans 11 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day.” And David says: “May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever.” **
So when you say did they hear, Paul says Yes (read rom 10) but then Paul explains why they heard but could not hear.
My feeling is the LFW defense like it’s conterpart, DETERMINSM only relies upon one side of the scale in order to sustain it’s consistency. LFW wants to claim that God in fact loves men with a love which is unparalleled. However in order to avoid Universalism it has to LIMIT this love from a God who SEEKS the lost and CAUSES their salvation (EZE 36) to a God who throws a life perserve in the water and instruct the drowning person how to take hold of the life saver.
Determinism takes the other path and denies the scriptures that warn of perseverence. They OMIT those scripture in order to sustain consistency that man is not responsible for saving himself.
Universalism omits neither but rather denies the claim that GOD CANNOT SAVE WHO ME WANTS WHEN HE WANTS. Rather we uphold Romans 9 that GOD HARDENS WHOM HE WANTS AND SOFTEN WHOM HE WANTS.
Thus when the Calvinist and the Arm (to which you are at least sympathetic) claim that God CANNOT save someone from hell, WE UPHOLD GOD DOES AS HE PLEASES AND IF HE WANTS TO SAVE SOMEONE FROM HELL THERES NOT A COTTEN PICKIN THING WE CAN SAY OR DO ABOUT IT. Salvation is God’s and he gives it to WHOMEVER he pleases. And from the nature of Love, we believe it pleases him to CAUSE all men to come to repentance.
So of course we deny the sorry man made tale that God made some creatures, then allowed a devil to talk to them, and then skins them alive for being tricked by that devil. Of course we deny the sad man made tale that God GAMBLED up the objects of his love (adam and eve) in order to see if they really love him.
Rather most of us agree, the scriptures are much bigger than one verse of John 3:16 or even a few verses here and there; the scriptures paint an image of a God who loves the wicked SO much that he sets out to save them and THAT LOVE IN PARTICULAR, NEVER FAILS.
Again,
The LFW defense MUST refrain from rendering a God who ACTIVELY sets forth to save someone. For if God actually CAUSED someone to walk in his ways then he would have failed if they reject it. If God CAUSES someone to do anything (and he cannot fail at what he causes) then they don’t have a choice do they?
So like the one sided scale of LFW always resolves, GOD DOES NOT CAUSE PEOPLE TO WALK IN HIS WAYS.
Yet we read: **Ezekiel 36:27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.” **
And Romans 9 seems to agree, God SOFTENS the hearts of men, where LFW (as yourself) denies he does. For men must soften their own hearts in order for God to soften thier hearts.
you said: Now did he send his Son to save the world or did he send his Son to offer salvation?
Aaron37: The Father sent His Son to save whosoever will believe and receive the gift of salvation. If the whole world believes and receives Jesus for salvation that would be wonderful! The whole world will be given the chance to accept Jesus as their savior. Sadly not the whole world will choose Him. Some choose themselves and that is a sad fact.
you said : Do you believe that people who physically die without having had a fair chance to “accept Jesus” will be given a chance later?
Aaron37: Fair chance? I believe God will get the gospel to everyone who positively responds to the light they have been given. The answer you seek is found in the first chapter of Romans. (Romans 1:18-31) The dictionary definition of the word “Godhead” is, “God, or the essential and divine nature of God.” Therefore, Paul is stating that God has given every person an intuitive revelation of His divine nature. What a statement! And what a responsibility when men will have to stand before God and answer for the perversions they had perpetrated in the name of God. In their hearts, they knew better.
As Paul explained in Romans 1:18-20, every person who has ever lived has had God reveal Himself to them, but this verse is explaining that revelation is not always received. Each individual has the freedom of choice.
In verses 21-23, Paul describes different characteristics of those who reject God’s revelation. These could also be descriptive of progressive steps that one takes away from the true revelation of God.
The first step in rejecting God is not to glorify Him as the supreme, all knowing, unquestionable God. This is what happened with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. They questioned God’s intent behind His command (Gen. 3:1-6). They ceased to magnify and honor God as they once did. Submission to God as supreme is always humbling and therefore “self” rebels. This is very prevalent today.
Secondly, they were not thankful. This is always a sign that self is exalting itself above God. A selfless person can be content with very little. A self-centered person cannot be satisfied. Thankfulness is a sign of humility and cultivating a life of thankfulness will help keep “self” in its proper place.
After these first two steps have been taken, then the individual’s mind is freed to begin imagining foolish, wicked, and idolatrous thoughts . This leads to a hardened heart and being reprobate.
Again, Aaron. I agree with John 3:16. But I also believe that God is not passive in watching people drown. The paradigm of LFW has God standing on the sidelines waiting for the sick to ask for help. UNFORTUNATLEY the sick WILL NEVER ask him for help since they hate him (which is part of the sickness). So I find the scriptures teach that God actually is the one who moves us or CAUSES us to walk in his ways. It is his causation of mercy which brings us to our knees, and his act of humbling us of our arrogance rests ONLY in his hands. (did you read my thread on the argument from humility).
Thus this man made idea that God gambled (took risks) when creating Adam and Eve is something I reject since I don’t believe the bible teaches God is unloving. FOR ANY FATHER WHO RISKS HIS CHILDREN IS HARDLY A GOOD FATHER. Rather I find, it was GOD WHO BOUND ADAM AND EVE TO DISOBEDEINCE (ROM 11:32) that he MIGHT HAVE MERCY ON ADAM AND EVE ( that they would experience his love in a unfailing way).
Unlike the LFW paradigm of a God who risks the objects of his love, the Universalism paradigm has a PERFECT God who’s purpose is ALWAYS ACHIEVED and WHO did not predestine salvation (which once again you seem to re-write scripture - as pauls states) but predestined US to receive his mercy. It was he who subjected creation to this decay that it might receive mercy as the adoption as sons.
Yes, I agree faith is necessary, and I agree people will go to hell. But I disagree that God CANNOT have mercy on whom he wants. If he wishes to save people from hell, there is not ONE THING AARON37 can say or do about it. Salvation is God’s (rom 9).
I believe God made us as close to Him as he could without the Deity. That includes making choices. God will not violate his word or your will. God will not believe for you. God gives you a choice to receive or reject his grace. I believe God has made it as easy as He can to get saved. God has given everyone an intuitive knowledge of himself. If they respond positively to the light given them, He will reveal Himself more to give everyone the same opportunity to receive His gospel of grace. Romans Chapter one is crystal clear of man be giving the revelation of God and not receiving it by choice. God allows you by choice to go your own way by rejecting this intuitive knowlege of Himself to the point of being reprobate.
I know it’s this is an anecdotal argument and thus not worth as much as the arguments of some others, but what if this ‘intuitive knowledge’ (which I too believe in, Aaron, and I think this is the cause of all Religion [religion being mans attempt to move toward God, which we both know is unaffective unless God moves toward man].), is fostered by Muslim parents or Jewish parents, and they accept the Muslim or Jewish answers to our existential questions, pray to G-d or Allah, and do not accept Christ because they truly believe that they are following the God who placed that ‘intuitive knowledge’ in their heart. Do you think that God will correct them and move them toward him after death? Do you think anyone who was truly seeking God would be led by God out of those religions? Do you think that following those religions leads to a ‘reprobate’ heart?
Rainbow,
Great question. Prevenient grace which seems to be the weapon for equal opportunity salvation tends to fail when we look at the middle east and find that the percentage of them do not end up christian? Why is that?
I am not a proponent of “living up to the light that you have” concerning soteriology.
On one hand I hear the LFW position argue that such muslims and jews will go to hell for rejecting Jesus. On the other, I hear them say well God will provide them a chance…well how much of a chance??? 100,000,000 to 1? or maybe it’s 50/50?
Recently on Facebook, I’ve been writing a series on why I reject tradition ECT and have embraced Evangelical Universalism. This is one of those very points.
I illustrated that there is a conflict with two positions for those who believe in LFW and ECT.
It matters how we raise our children, for raising our children in a house that serves the lord is vital. Teaching our children in the ways of the lord and when they are old they will not depart from it.
God judges people according to what they know, thus everyone has an equal opportunity to be saved.
Obviously 2 negates 1. For if a drug addict should raise his son on drugs and illegal behaviors, the boy still has the same equal opportunity hds he been raised by Billy Graham in a God fearing home.
Thus the idea that God judges us based on what we know DESTROYS the necessity of us raising children with Christian values.
So far, I have found this unavoidable for LFW subscribers. Perhaps there is a good answer out there, I’ve simply not been offered it yet. - actually I’ve not heard any answers on this - not even by PRATT (ok ok i didn’t pose it to him).
The idea that God rests our eternal destinies on "CHANCE’ is as corrupt as a God who DETERMINES the outcome to eternally damn some.
I agree we make choices, but when we are in the image of God our choices become more free. HOWEVER this also implies that when we are not in the image of God we are NOT free to make choices. I believe this is exactly what scripture declares
“When we were sinners, we were controlled by our sinful nature”
“For the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers that they cannot hear the gospel”
Yet the LFW would have me believe that:
sinners are not controlled by their sinful nature; rather they choose their nature because they’re simply evil.
the god of this age has blinded men, but god gives them sight so that they can choose?
Where are these in scripture? Can you provide the scriptures which states, they are free from the bondage of sin WITHOUT BEING SAVED?
Can you provide the scripture which states that men can serve 2 masters? then he has to choose?
I am one who believes that when one is free from the bondage of sin It IS SALVATION. For to reject God is to be enslaved to sin. If the man chooses God it’s because he was unchained from the sin that controlled him. And as EZE states…
“I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT IN YOU AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY WAYS” - once again another point you seem to deny.
you said: Do you think that God will correct them and move them toward him after death? Do you think anyone who was truly seeking God would be led by God out of those religions? Do you think that following those religions leads to a ‘reprobate’ heart?
Aaron37: 1) God will give all who respond positively to the knowledge of God they have with an opportunity to believe and receive the gospel of grace. 2) Yes, if they believe and receive Jesus’ finished work on the cross… 3) Yes, I think that it can.
But aren’t those worshipping Allah motivated by the same intuitive knowledge. How can they know to worship Christ, even if they are told? Do they really have an equal chance when everything in their family, society, etc. is structured against Christ. The only other thing you can resort to is back to Calvinistic tendencies and say that God will take those out of the Muslim faith who he wants to take out of the Muslim faith.
Again, in most cases what would motivate them beside direct interferance from God. Is Christianity more intellectually and spiritually satisfying? I would say yes, but I recognize that social pressure is often far stronger than intellect and that even if a Muslim was given a well argued, strongly presented case for the Christian faith, the chances of him or her abandoning everything they ever believed in are very low. In some cases, of course, Muslims are drawn out, but I think for many the only thing that will turn them to the faith is the personal encounter with their savior after death. I believe that encounter will be one of reconcilliation.
I understand the origins of your beliefs about reprobation, but would you agree or not agree that Islam, Judaism, etc. themselves seem to originate with this intuition that comes from God. I feel that followers of these religions are following either error filled or incomplete revelation, but I do feel that those religions can lead them toward orthopraxis if not orthodoxy and see others in these religious groups as farther from final reprobation than the athiest.
Calvinistic theology is wrong. The Holy Spirit draws them and convicts them when they hear the word of God preached…they either believe and receive or doubt an do without. The problem with our modern day gospel…it never was supposed to be preached in word only, but in power, with signs and miracles confirming the word.( Mark 16:15-20) If a Muslim has a relative sick and dying of a terminal illness, and you pray for them in the name of Jesus and they are healed… do you think those Muslims will look at Jesus in a different way? You bet they would! Signs and miracles confirm the gospel and people believe in Jesus for salvation. Praise God! It is happening all over the world (especially the Muslim world) as we speak. Millions of Muslims are believing in Jesus at a unbelieveable rate.
Again, If all we do is hold our bibles in our hands and say " This sayeth the Lord" and the Muslims hold their Qur’an and say " This sayeth Allah" we will accomplish nothing and leave frustrated. We need the signs and miracles to confirm the word in demonstration of the Spirit and Power! Jesus’ ministry was never supposed to end on the cross…He has given authority to all believers to walk in the same power that he walked in. Glory be to God forever!
And that choice is: love me or I will burn you forever in Hell.
Well, heck! I’d love Him, or at least give it my best shot. Just maybe that is why there are so many people who say they are believers but don’t seem to be thrilled with God in the least. You never hear them speak kindly of Him, never any praise reports…
If I were engaged to a man who told me, “love me or I will kill you” first time he turned his back I would be so gone!
Agreed Debbie, and even the concept of “believe me” as if people choose to believe something makes no sense.
If I tell Aaron there are 14 purple fat martians with banannas growing from their ears and that if he fails to believe in them then he will be tortured forever, would he “will” himself to believe it? Would it be lip service?
LFW whose paradigm is so confused simply don’t think about the difficult questions. Instead they continue to repeat the same propositions because “they know it’s true” because “the bible says so”.
I agree it’s sad, it’s sad they believe God had to give up his children (Adam and Eve) to the devil so they could then choose who they want as their parent and depending on their decision, he’ll either skin them alive for all eternity or love them for all eternity. Truly sad scenarios when their laid out for what they are.
Funny thing is Scripture never says God gambled them up. It’s all philosophy but they’re not willing to admit it. So long as “that’s what the bible teaches” rolls off their lips they think that God must be using them. Sad.
No, your seeing it all wrong. The gospel was never to be preached to turn or burn. Although, going to hell is a true consequence of one rejecting Jesus, but hell was never to be used to drive someone to God by fear. God does not want people to come to faith in Jesus because they are afraid of the alternative ( Although that is better than not coming to faith at all).The church has missed it in the area of sharing the gospel. Going to hell is not good news. But it has to be explained to the sinner to give them the full picture of eternity. They will spend eternity in one of two places. Where they spend it determines on their response to the finished work of Jesus on the cross. Its a choice. Spend eternity with God or spend it separated from Him. Most people choose themselves. God will not force you to accept this free gift of salvation…you must respond by faith and receive it personally.
If I sit in a garage that does not make a car. Just because you go to church, debbie, that does not make you a believer. One has to be born again to be in the family of God.
(ok ok i didn’t pose it to him).