(1) – No one is so trying to engage you, Jeff… I do not see how you have deduced this from replies to you. I have simply stated FACTS… They being that neither YOU nor Jason, has addressed the Scriptures in the OP…
(2) – I am not going to search the site for replies made elsewhere that MIGHT be pertinent to this topic. If you don’t wish to answer, simple… DON’T.
I had no idea you were a moderator here, and the question has not been asked by me… Again, I don’t know where you are getting this stuff from?
I have not suggested that God has done any “dragging” concerning you… and if He did (and He will)… you would/will not have any choice in the matter…
No one is caught up in their own righteousness… that I have requested that Jason reply as HE SAID HE WOULD… has nothing to do with raising “righteousness” at all… Just a stated FACT.
I think you shall be quite surprised at how CHRIST will deal with you (it is not a case of “IF”), should you present other than HIMSELF IN YOU, to Him – Matt 7:22-23
And your postings to me are an “example” of this “LOVE”?
It was not I that noted me to be “tonking my waggler like a testosterone fuelled child”… that were YOU, bro…
What have I said to you which you consider unloving, and why? …I am not unwilling to learn or be corrected…
I present the WORD and the TRUTH as best that I know how… and challenge fallacy in doing so… Nothing personal… you however have chosen to walk this “personal” road with me…
Please SPECIFICLY note to me the UNLOVING and UNCHRISTLIKE things that I have stated, which caused this personal issue , to arise this in you… (saying – “When I read your posts I don’t see Him I see ‘ME! ME! ME!’”)
You do not even BELIEVE in Him, or that He truly exists… so how is it that YOU determine that YOU, cannot percieve HIM in ME?
Most do not like challenge or confrontation of their POLITICAL or SPIRITUAL beliefs… you appear no different than most. I am not here to agree with fallacy… I am here to CHALLENGE it… Those who cling to it, will no doubt resent me, just as they RESENTED CHRIST when He proposed TRUTH to them…
Maybe we can resolve this, maybe not, but I am willing to try to see what has made you so “up in a wrinkle”, and make apologies that might be necessary (if indeed they are due)…
What part of this answer:
(1) brought up your position as moderator? (2) did not display CHRIST? (3) proposed SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS, (4) is an ENDLESS arguement? (5) suggested GOD “dragging” anyone? (6) suggested you to be subserviant?
You brought up why I visit these boards - I said that was my business - I brought up the moderator as extra information to show that I am not just a casual visitor but have invested more than that here. But of course you are looking for confrontation nothing more - you are here to show us poor mistaken wretches just how much you know better than us - in fact, just like you did last time you were here.
The second part of the quote shows where you have engaged with me by demanding I answer your challenges.
Christ was only confrontational with the ruling religious leaders never with the prostitutes, tax collectors or publicans with whom he ate and drank to such an extent that the religious leaders called him (in that wonderful KJV phrase) a winebibber. I firmly place myself in the camp of the latter - a sinner to the core.
As for christlike behaviour the arrogance of your certainty that all the things you currently believe are 100% correct and that all things your religious opponents believe is absolute rubbish shows the truth or otherwise of that. They may see through a glass darkly but you see through clear glass that has been polished to a shine.
I am well happy to concede that I may be completely wrong in my worldview but you aren’t. so let’s see you tick off any of the following characteristics that apply to you…
Whether you like it or not you are witnessing to me as a non-believer just as everyone else here is who claim to be a Christian. You can rail and spit all you like but the fruit of your witness to me is only known in my heart and by God (if he or she exists). However I doubt you’ll concede this last point as you probably already ‘know’ by some divine communication system what your witness is doing to me and I expect you think it is the most marvelous thing I have ever encountered.
I am not going to engage in hijacking this thread any further. We obviously don’t have any comon ground (and I seem to remember the same thing happening last time too).
If you wish to take this as a great victory for your unanswerable questions (perhaps you should engage a biologist rather than a web designer about complex biological issues that neither you nor I know enough about to form a coherent argument) then do so - I concede defeat to your superior powers of debate.
Okay… I can see that you noting you are a moderator shows you are not a “casual visitor”, and I did not even suggest this anyway! …but why did you not just state this in this manner instead of all the “ring-around-the-rosy”? Such as… “I am a moderator on this forum willieH, and not just a casual visitor here…”
FIRST — Jeff… This is a discussion forum… and in discussion of varying topics, shall there arise differing viewpoints… I am not “looking for confrontation” at all… What this amounts to is yet another assumption made by you, nothing more.
Within the challenging statements made to others (in the interest of TRUTH), as to the validity of a given position, shall at times, dependent upon the sincerity and dedication of those who are searching for TRUTH (not just trying and/or hoping to maintain a BELIEF or BELIEFS which they presently HOLD as “TRUTHFUL”), shall confrontation arise…
SECOND — I was a member of the Salvation Army (20yrs) and 7th Day Adventist (5yrs) churches, in addition to affiliations and ministries with Assembly of God, Pentecostal independents, Healing Rooms International, all of which are TRINITARIAN believing entities… Though I have NO BAD REPORT of any of these, and I love and miss many which I spent long periods of time becoming an active part both as a member and in service… I did not gravitate to their several strawman presentation of the TRINITY, and resultingly, have departed each in time, due to the fact that I have found BIBLICAL foundation that disposes of this belief.
THIRD — I have not and WILL NOT call you “mistaken” or “WRONG”… Yes I believe you to be VEILED… but the TRUTH is that only GOD is RIGHT… And none of us have the “right” to note the other “WRONG”, for it is at HIS DESCRETION and at HIS DECISION, when and IF we shall come to KNOW any aspect of HIS TRUTH…
The only way that YOU can determine ME as “wrong” or I, YOU… is by using our own belief as the measure to do so. So I choose to use HIS WORD combined with the REASON that HE INSTRUCTS we involve ourselves, in our pursuit of Him – Isaiah 1:18 – to discover the TRUTH that is actually WRITTEN in the WORD…
In proposing that you provide substanciation for your “beliefs” which coincides with the Scripture is not abusive, nor is it “calling you a wretch”… it is an attempt to urge you to EXAMINE what you “believe” in proximity to the WORD of God…
You being AGNOSTIC or ATHIEST (I am not sure which of these you actually aspire to, for they are NOT the same)… puts you into a position of “believing” that a process other than GOD, is responsible for LIFE and the existence of the Universe we observe…
That I requested you to explain the scientific foundation of life = DNA/PROTEIN — which are 2 entirely different elements that cannot exist without the other… is not calling you a “wretch”… It is a VALID QUESTION, which plainly dissolves the conjecture of evolution (that is unless you can explain how BOTH just EVOLVED simultaneously, thereby facilitating the existence of the other)…
Also, it must be explained WHAT these 2 “evolved” from, for they could NOT have “evolved” from each other.
I fail to see how this is noting you to be a “wretch”? It is just an honest prompting which is sincerely presented in hopes you shall INVESTIGATE your present position as AGNOSTIC or ATHEIST, whichever the case may be.
I did not DEMAND anything of you… I challenged you… are you up to the challenge? If you believe a given thing, then you must (or should) have foundation for doing so, otherwise the “belief” is delusional, having no REASONBLE foundation or explanation… Why should such a challenge, if indeed has VALID GROUNDS, be intimidating or abusive? If it is TRUE that there is NO GOD, then as the ATHIEST or AGNOSTIC might say “then, prove He exists”… wherein is disrespect found in a reply that says “prove He does not exist”?
I am not sure how you being an ATHIEST or AGNOSTIC, can consider yourself a “sinner”, Jeff? If you do not even believe that GOD exists (ATHIEST) …or… you are not convinced that God does or does not exist (AGNOSTIC)… then how can you find the convictions of GOD which note men to be “sinners” due to their varying misbehaviors?
FIRST — I am not CERTAIN that all I believe is 100% correct, and I have NEVER noted this… Nor have I noted that the beliefs of others are “absolute rubbish”… Let me ask you a question… Do you believe that “believers” in God are delusional? Do you consider yourself ARROGANT for believing this? It is no more ARROGANT for me to “BELIEVE”, that it is for you to “DISBELIEVE”…
What this amounts to, is a strawman assumption that you have erected in order to distract from actually answering questions from me.
If what you “believe” is TRUE, then why not show ME where in fact, is found the error of what I “believe”? It is NOT ARROGANT to believe…
It is ARROGANT to claim that another is “WRONG” due to ones own belief in a given thing, while failing and being UNWILLING to prove the TRUTH of ones “belief” …which in its ESTABLISHMENT, notes the other’s “belief” as the one in question.
SECOND — Of the 2 of us… I have volunteered Scriptural basis for my belief… and in doing so, have challenged my opposers –
(1) trinitarians such as Jason, to show in the Scriptures the TRUTH of the “trinity”, refuting me… or, (2) Athiest/Agnostics such as yourself to show Scientifically that there is NO GOD, refuting me…
Jeff… this is like me telling (informing) you… “Hey Jeff, you have some dirt on your face” and YOU reacting to your vision of my face without dirt upon it, as insulting, instead of going to the MIRROR and finding out whether or not what I have said to you was true or mischievous.
I am like all other human beings (with the exception of CHRIST)… Only a MEASURE of faith has been given me – Rom 12:3 – and in that (incomplete) MEASURE, I shall not have TOTAL and CLEAR – FULL vision of the HOLY…
I am studied over a long life of dedication, which has remained OPEN to God, in the face of ORGANIZATIONS which urged me to believe as do they… Instead of ignorantly complying with their presentations, I have sought the pathway that YHVH God decided HE would note to me… and have, within my imperfect and incomplete way, though I have stumbled along, diligently seeking after the LIGHT, instead of POSITION that I easily could have had within the ORGANIZATIONS…
I shall continue to gracefully answer you Jeff… but do you not see that this whole post is an effort to disregard QUESTIONS asked of you that challenge you? You present CHALLENGE to me below… yet are UNWILLING to comply with CHALLENGE made to YOU by me… yet fully EXPECT me to respond? Which is indeed, the arrogant position?
(1) — Being a non-believer in God, how may you deduce the SPIRITUAL notation of the SPIRIT of LOVE? And in what way have I violated your perception of this premise, in my conversation with you?
My observance of the respect of YHVH in the SPIRIT of LOVE, is done before Him daily, that I shall not so much as kill even a spider which errantly comes into my home, …for I hold a DEEP respect for the LIFE it possesses in the SPIRIT of LOVE toward the spider, and the Creator which GAVE that spider its life… how about you, Jeff?
(2) — JOY — I am completely elated and immersed in the JOY of the LOVE of YHVH God… who, in spite of my myriad misbehaviors and mistakes, STILL LOVES me, and shall SAVE me from those misbehaviors and mistakes…
(4) — PATIENCE — I have been patient with you Jeff (in particular)… and will continue to be patient with you for you are a SON of the MOST HIGH (irregardless of the fact you have yet to KNOW this). That patience does not preclude the challenges given you… nor does it allow me to be upset with you for avoiding them, either!
(5) — KINDNESS — I believe that representing TRUTH by using the WORD and presenting it to others is the ULTIMATE KINDNESS to them… I have spent many hours, days and years… to include my own humble prosperities, …raising children that were NOT sired by me, …supporting the community in service to their needs (food, clothing, shelter)… Even committing monetary support to others which I shall never KNOW in this life, to disparities abroad… ALL this from a musician that made around $4000 last year, enough “kindness”? …how about you Jeff?
(6) — GOODNESS — I spend most of my day in the WORD, …every day. This is my dedication to that which is GOOD, for – Matt 19:17 – CHRIST said …“why callest thou Me GOOD, there is only ONE, GOOD, that is GOD”
(7) — FAITHFULNESS — I actually began in a small group of believers which totaled around 15, of which to this day, fo those 15 – only my wife and I remain Christians (including the pastor who led the group)… I have remained since becoming a believer, in 34 years of service to GOD and His WORD, both serving my fellow man, and seeking throughout that period, His WORD for the TRUTH available in it to be found… How about you Jeff?
(9) — SELF CONTROL — Now this one is a challenger! Even though you have provoked me several times brother, …I have remained in CONTROL of any angers which might wish to be enjoined in my responses to you… I am not perfect in any of these, but am CONTINUALLY involved with ALL of them in my life. How about you Jeff?
I shall not present to you, an UNBELIEVER… that which is NOT FOUNDED upon the WORD… And when the WORD is presented to you by me… it shall speak for Itself…
I have been “witnessing” to people like you the last 34 years of my 65 year life, Jeff… for a short time, I was a drug addiction counselor… I spent time witnessing of the Love of GOD in a HOMELESS shelter for almost a year… in which MANY had cause to be UPSET with GOD, due to the compositions and results of their lives…
That you might become uncomfortable with your own DISBELIEF in God, due to conversing with me, suggests the insecurity of your position, it does NOT suggest that my “witness” of Him, concerning you is in question. Many of the followers in the early church (especially the Apostles), were tormented and even put to death by those to whom they “witnessed”…
Explain your position of UNBELIEF to me Jeff… maybe by noting scientifically, why my witness is INVALID? And in what WAY my “witness” has been poorly presented to you, by me.
I have not positioned myself above you (as an AGNOSTIC or ATHIEST) in any way, nor above any other BELIEVER in GOD… for I believe in CDS [COMPLETE DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY], which notes that ALL is foreordained to be as it IS… and each shall follow a pathway that GOD decides they shall walk – Rom 9:16-18 – Prov 20:24 – 16:1,9 – 21:1 – Jer 10:23
Rail and spit? Come on dear brother… Please note to me the “railing and spitting” comments I have made to you. If you cannot, it is the DISCOMFORT of your own position in LIFE, that feels so assaulted… mainly because the TRUTH, at times… HURTS. If you actually really BELIEVED that there is NO GOD, or even if just UNCONVINCED… you would have some BASIS for this, other than just because you haven’t “seen Him” lately… The AIR exists, even though no one has ever SEEN IT… People “believe” other places EXIST in the World, even though they have NEVER SEEN THEM… come on.
To base your BELIEF on this type of foundational premise is pretty weak. No one has ever SEEN an ATOM, yet we KNOW they exist… No one has ever SEEN the center of the Earth or the Sun, yet we KNOW they exist…
As I said Jeff… I was once an ATHIEST in my early years… so, as to where you ARE at present in this “belief”… been there, done that.
More assumptions made of me, by you, brother Jeff… You make this all about YOURSELF! I do not even CARE if you recieve ANYTHING that I say… for it is up to GOD, whether or not you shall benefit by your momentary convo with me, or no.
It does not even matter to me, one way or the other. I write that others (as well as the one I address), might read and benefit. This has and WILL continue to take place in my ministry… I have had MANY messages conveyed to me, by people that did not even enter a given conversation, that noted having benefited by what I proposed in discussion. The centering upon self which happens in both DISBELIEVING positions as well BELIEVING ones, …is the biggest evidence of insecurity… It is when one concerns themselves with OTHERS first, that self is actually found its secure, rightful and most beneficial place… Which is WHY that it does not matter to me, whether or not my words are used by God or not. For HIS GLORY is what I seek, and if HIS GLORY is obtained by the ignorance of my words, then I hail that decision.
Btw… please don’t feel bad, and please know, that I am not trying to speak harmfully to you… if we are honest, we are all in the position of SELFISHNESS at times…
As I believe, …your converstation with me, and mine with you, was decided before ANYTHING was even EXISTENT, for it was NOT YET DONE when the DECLARATION, made in the WORDS of YHVH, was made – Isaiah 46:10 – I do not EXPECT anything. I do my best in presenting the WORD of YHVH, and then leave the results of my presentation in HIS HANDS to use or not.
He decides to employ my words or to leave them inert in the ears/eyes of those they were presented to. And I have no problem with HIS DECISIONS of with the results which occur in the USE or NONUSE of them…
Hmmm… which of us has derailed this topic, Jeff? And bringing up past differences (which you have not named), in order to EMPHASIS dissensions… is not profitable.
Jeff… does this not even rattle your position slightly in your mind? I am not a scientist! I am a self-taught musician… But concerning the arguements AGAINST the existence of GOD… I have bothered to research at least a little, as to whether they have even the slightest creedence!
You remain an AGNOSTIC or ATHIEST, based upon a false foundation. If you cannot take a moment to find out whether or not I have stated a TRUTH concerning DNA/PROTEIN, then you evade even the foundation of your own DISBELIEF… let alone the TRUTH that GOD exists because SCIENCE, in their OBSTINATE arrogance… has discovered the SIGNATURE of the ALMIGHTY in the DNA/PROTEIN paradox…
You ignore the basis of your own DISBELIEF, and invalidate it by that ignorance. It has nothing to do with any “superior power” that you concede to me (which I do not have, anyway)!!!
I wish you the BEST brother… especially wishing that this conversation might cause you to investigate your position concerning the existence of GOD.
As for the DNA protein I feel that for you this is an argument from personal incredulity - you can’t see how this could have arisen naturally so that proves the existence of the Christian God and the Bible. I believe that science will slowly erode these apparently inexplicable facts of nature in the same way that it has done so very successfully in the past for other seemingly inexplicable phenomena.
This is my (non facetious) explanation of my sig The Agnostic Universalist
To me the worst crime I could commit in relation to declaring myself to be a Christian would be that of hypocrisy. I genuinely find the advanced arguments and counter-arguments put forth by both naturalists and theists plausible (I don’t know if you’ve read any of them but there are deep and complex philosophical positions held on both sides of that divide); hence I use the tag ‘Agnostic’. But many believe that reasoned argument has no place in determining the existence or otherwise of a deity; that leaves personal revelation or some kind of Damascus road experience neither of which I have ever experienced. The result is, therefore, that if I were to declare openly as a Christian I would be lying and hence no better off than if I honestly hold my current position (or even outright atheism). I doubt that even you would berate me for holding this worldview in complete honesty and integrity.
As for Universalist part - i was born into and grew up in the Plymouth Brethren in the UK - I was steeped in Bible study for about 20 years (albeit of a John Nelson Darby dispensationalist hell-fire type). Therefore, unlike many non-believers, I have read all the books in the bible many times over and studied many of them in detail. Therefore, it is not surprising that I continue to study it - it is part of who I am. That said - I am now convinced that the Bible teaches across its entirety Universal Reconciliation - hence the Universalist part of my sig. However, that doesn’t mean I believe that is the nature of reality (whatever that turns out to be). Therefore - I find the arguments for and against finely balanced but I hope Judeo-Christian Universalism is true.
So - far from being an Oxy-Moron - it is a reasoned and honest statement of my position.
**** Edited **** to include a link to an example of pro and con arguments of a theistic nature that quickly go over my head
The link is to the discussion attached to a blog post by Eric Reitan in which he starts a series of articles designed to undermine naturalism as an explanation for consciousness (it’s easy to click back to the blog post itself). This is for illustrative purposes only and not meant to start an argument about consciousness
The DNA/PROTEIN paradox is not the only problem (by far) encountered by Science in its false and utterly ridiculous presentation of EVOLUTION as an explanation for the existence of MATTER and LIFE as well as the entire UNIVERSE…
There are many other questionable facets that I, as an uneducated musician, can present, …that the Scientific community cannot address as well… Not just the one (DNA/Protein problem) I have just proposed to you, …
If they cannot even deal with their own discovery of this PROBLEMATIC FOUNDATION… How may they progress further? They have literally shot themselves in the foot by discovering the DNA molecule, its structural makeup and functionalities. There are many involved things which take place within the activity of the DNA molecule… which REQUIRE prior INFORMATION for said activity to be performed…
I am curious… if DNA and PROTEIN are 2 separate entities which are COMPLETELY dependent upon the other in order to EXIST… How shall (other than complete BS), science explain their “evolution”?
Heck, they can’t even tell you from what “preceeding thing” that these 2 evolved/emerged FROM?
There is much much, more Jeff… and I am willing to start another thread, and present more if you think you might have a position to either dismiss or prove wrong, many other nagging problems with evolution…
Again, I am very likely MUCH less educated than yourself (as you say you are a computer “web designer”)… I finished high school over 45 years ago (which in today’s eduational terms, might be equivalent to 6th, 7th or 8th grade education at best)… So any discussion with me should be a “piece of cake” to dominate, eh? …
Know however, that I have become a person that does not just discuss things of which I am totally unfamiliar…
I try to investigate at least the surface and elementary basis for supposed “worldview” positions… such as EVOLUTION, or in religious circles, AGNOSTICISM/ATHEISM as opposed to those which can percieve the OBVIOUS design in ALL that surrounds us in this world was INTELLIGENTLY and COMPLEXLY DESIGNED and PURPOSED into existence, let alone the vast UNIVERSE of which we (“worldviewers”) have ZILCH for knowledge…
Heck …(Not ALL but MOST) scientists change their “fact” menu of definitions, daily…
One day Black holes are the most powerful thing in the “Uni”, the next it is demoted in favor of WHITE HOLES (saw an article about this in a science magazine, while waiting cancer radiation therapy)… Tomorrow it’ll be BLOW HOLES or NO HOLES or maybe FILLED HOLES… or any other misleading terminology they might invent in order to convince the public that which they want it to swallow next, in order to inflate their ego’s and intelletual illusions of grandeur, presenting the most impressive 25cent words they might come up with, in the stead of the FACTUAL TRUTH which is the admission that they really KNOW NOTHING.
To suggest that the EXTREMELY COMPLEX and inherent LIVING and MIRACULOUS elements of a LIVING HUMAN BEING (sight, hearing, tasting, smelling, digestive system, breathing system, not to mention body parts with varying UNdesigned appendages that afford it mobility and dexterity in a further “unassisted” way – feet, hands, fingers, arms, head, plus complex informationally contained reproductive systems, not to mention the EMOTIONAL and intangible capacities which are prevalent and a large part of the HUMAN experience, as well as needful within it, …all just “FELL” into some magical random, unassisted and PERFECT evolutionary UNDIRECTED, UNASSISTED agenda) can “evolve” without even the slightest assistance or information, is an exaggeration which is tantamount to throwing sufficient amounts of rubber, metal, plastic, and oil in an empty yard, and given enough “time”, expecting that these UNLIVING random materials shall eventually in the course of millions of years, erect themselves into a fully equipped, functional and operational 747 Jumbo Jet, complete with kitchen stocked with food, untensils all operational mechanisims for flight, fueled and raring to go!
Our “self made” JET, would do all these things, and have all these operational benefits (which are not even “ALIVE”) because of the inherent fantasized premises to which evolutionists subscribe… Said “OIL” would of course, refine ITSELF, and turn ITSELF into proper JET FUEL, with just the right parameters for a JET engine to efficiently operate… which is the equivalent of = VARYING Plant bearing FOODS evolving of themselves, and which just happen to be PERFECT and COMPLETELY in HARMONY with the needs of HUMAN anatomy… which is just over on the next “hillside” evolving independently from them.
This evolution of VARYING FOOD bearing plants with VARYING benefits which are IMPERITIVE in the sustaining of Human life just “occured” out of nowhere and from nothing… and by “coincidence” happen to be JUST what Humans need to sustain their lives! Please!
The more EVOLUTION is observed (just concerning Humans), the more laughably ridiculous it appears. We don’t even want to get into the myriads of species of lifeforms on earth which are totally UNRELATED biologically, such as bacteria, varying plant life, insect life, birds, fish, the list is endless…
All in all… Science (forgive the crudeness) speaks more out of their lying, misleading and UNINFORMED butts than anywhere else.
Often ARROGANTLY stating THEORY or HYPOTHESIS as if it is conclusional and proven to be FACTUAL, …then often changing those “facts” as they discover during futher research, the descrepancies in those “FACTS”… just tune in to the History or Discovery channels for a few shows, and you shall see this IMPERFECT and INCOMPLETE method in action, repeated foolishly over and over…
The other night I was watching a show about the Bermuda Triangle… and because they sucessfully sunk a small “ski” boat (5 or 6 passenger) that was SITTING STILL (unmoving) in the water, with pumped in bubbles… They immediately deduced that the many ships which have disappeared in the Triangle is NOW EXPLAINED…
That is about as conclusive as you or I gazing to the Horizon and concluding that the EARTH ENDS at that horizon of our vision, and then telling others that we have vision of the entire earth from our (way overestimated) viewpoint! Please…
Hey — I’m not up for “Mr. Smart 2010”, …but no one will pull this stench filled b.s. over my eyes without recieving a LOT of objection!
Nice talking to you Jeff… I really intend you no harm to… but in closing, I remain curious…
You stated that you have read the books of the Bible many times over, and have studied many of them in detail… and yet you still have no explanation whatsoever, for the Scriptures in the OP? I’m wondering why?
FYI… I do not really consider or name myself a “Christian”, for that label represents way too much fallacy for me… I consider myself a dedicated and IMPERFECT follower of CHRIST… and in my faith, firmly believe in the Salvation of ALL MEN… as well as the ENTIRE CREATION…
We just have to agree to disagree - you are persuaded of the truth of the stuff you presented above - I am not.
I worked with Geneticists for many years in the past (only in the capacity of a computer person - not as one of them) and they were and still are passionately convinced of the truth of evolution - even the few Christians among then said that their years of study compelled them to include evolution in their faith worldview.
That’s good enough for me.
Anyway - back to the sceduled programme about the trinity
It is fine with me if you do not wish to pursue this… Although in doing so, you remain convinced, and thereby cling to something (evolution) that you are unwilling to establish a REASONABLE validity or invalidity for it… This is the reason most cling to Orthodoxy in the Christian religion… for there is a FEAR of the costs that an INVESTIGATION of it, might avail… Which is also WHY no one has responded to the OP of this thread, concerning the Scriptures noted IN IT…
Most of what I have come to believe, is due to at one time, being in polar opposition to it (Including GOD), yet I was curious as to whether there was any real basis for that polarity, which I then, as do you now, firmly embraced… willing in the interest of TRUTH to find out if what “I believed”, actually merited “believing” in it!
I have found through an extended period of study and investigation (that investigation including the comparison of REASON to both GOD and EVOLUTION), and in conclusion came to realize that there IS absolutely no REAL basis for EVOLUTION at all, and that its arguement is COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC from even its very beginning… and that its WEAK position, can be EASILY exposed for the FALLACY that it IS.
These are men clinging to THEMSELVES and LIFEWORK they are not willing to abandon, bro…
Only one which in HUMILITY, is willing to be SO OPEN (to include ones own “life pursuits”), as to REQUIRE REASON within its conclusion… will very easily be able to define whether or not INTELLIGENT design produced the Universe and all that is within it… or it just “happened by itself”, of ONE random and spontaneous unaided generation, piling themselves in MYRIAD INNUMERABLE placings, on top of the others preceeding them, in a PERFECT, (and the detail of the Creation IS perfect) unassisted, procession.
As I said, in the past, elsewhere, …I have debated with Scientists like your “geneticists” and have, with my meager education, shown their intellect as INSUPERIOR to it on the basis of the SIMPLICITY of REASON as applied to their COMPLEX, UNREASONABLE, and THEORETICAL presentation which truly has NO real BASIS nor FOUNDATION whatsoever…
Hey… that’s fine with me brother… you are welcome to believe anything you wish… and it is not my intention to persuade you otherwise… My ministry is about presenting REASON to those who embrace UNREASONABLE positions concerning the SOURCE and destiny of ALL THINGS… Those who are “not interested” in comparing their beliefs to REASON, are foreordained to be so (uninterested)… That is GOD’s call, and I am more than happy to move on…
Apart from the ridiculous unproveable and unreasonable position of EVOLUTION…
Does this also mean, that your study of the many books of the Bible and detailed examination of some of them, is also exiting the opportunity to refute the Scriptures noted in the OP?
Like its sister, …evolution, …there is no such thing as the trinity… All either of them are, …are distractions from the pathway of truth and reason.
So it seems you are now setting up the idea that evolution is irrational and impossible – unless it is proved to YOU; just like you set it all up so that the idea of TRINITY is also irrational and unprovable – unless YOU are convinced???
I hope you see that no one here (or I hope anywhere else) accepts these terms right? It’s really not so hard to see that NO rational person is going to let YOU be the arbiter of truth and understanding. Of course we appreciate your convictions; it’s just best to also appreciate that they are YOURS.
Here’s a more interesting direction to take your energy WillieH
(just a suggestion my friend!)
I’m pretty sure you are convinced of UR. The idea that GOD will somehow (not WILLIE will somehow) lead all men to the relevant truths of His being.
If that’s the case, try this: Since you know the outcome, (ie UR for all) it’s quite easy to also realize that God is necessarily very hard at work trying to convince and save the very ones YOU seem so willing to disparage here! In this thinking, God IS busy – even now! – doing His healing work of saving and healing. Even those recalcitrant souls like JeffA here, and those men who are convinced of “evolution”.
And frankly WillieH, I think He’d like a little more kind and gentle help from folks like YOU.
All I can say is that you must think the Holy Spirit is incapable of reaching and convicting these wayward folks like Jeff and the evolutionists; therefore you must rush in to fill in where He has failed…
Hi brother… before I begin this reply… thanks for your answer, and even though you did not address the OP, I can understand your reasons for it, and mean no harm to you in this response…
Might I say that I have spent 34 years believing in YHVH as God… and even though I have spent much time in “trinitarian” organizations (20yrs w/Salvation Army – 5yrs w/SDA)… I have never agreed with the “trinity” and am quite confident that you shall not present anything which has not already been presented to me in that extensive amount of time… nor shall you “CONVINCE” me to adopt and believe IN, this fallacy. I do not seek to CONVINCE you or anyone else of ANYTHING… rather, I seek to provoke your investigation of your belief…
If you choose not to, …no sweat…
if you choose to investigate and afterwards remain a believer in this fallacy, again, …no sweat…
You may percieve in whatever manner you shall, my proposals…
Why did you not address the OP in this response, bro? Instead of complaining that somehow, according to “me”… the “trinity” is irrational? Where is your explanation of the several Scriptures I have noted, which LEAVE OUT any other entity as GOD, by YHVH …HIM… self?
For instance —>
Isaiah 43:10-11 ----- 10 ye are …[size=150]MY[/size]… witnessess, saith …[size=150]YHVH[/size]… and …[size=150]MY[/size]… servant whom …[size=150]I[/size]… have chosen; that ye may know and believe …[size=150]ME[/size]… and understand that …[size=150]I[/size]… am …[size=150]HE[/size]… before …[size=150]ME[/size]… there was no …[size=150]GOD[/size]… formed, neither shall there be after …[size=150]ME[/size]… 11 …[size=150]I[/size]… even …[size=150]I[/size]… am …[size=150]YHVH[/size]… and beside …[size=150]ME[/size]… there is no …[size=150]SAVIOR[/size]…
FIFTEEN singular references in just TWO VERSES, …made by YHVH of HIMSELF about HIMSELF, excluding ANY other entity!
I proposed several other Scriptures which DISINCLUDE any grouping of “gods” as being GOD… and YOU did not respond to any of them… Instead you make your portion of this “discussion” about me.
It does not matter to me whether anyone “accepts” anything I say here… Nor have I set “terms”… I have proposed Scripture, to which NO ONE has reponded to “here”… Including YOU in this answer…
I did not propose my “convictions”… I propose that the “trinity” is not an “entity”, as is taught by Orthodoxy…
The Scripture is the TRUTH… and to this point, …you have yet to ADDRESS IT.
I have not instilled myself as the “arbiter of truth and understanding”… I have just posed SCRIPTURAL OPPOSITION to the (supposed conjecture called) “trinity”…
That is a fine suggestion… God uses men (as instruments) in His communication with men… Just as YOU are amidst an attempt to try to “direct” me!!! …in hopes that your “suggestion”, might be coinciding with HIM and His directing of me… for if not… then all your suggestion amounts to is the discomfort you are amidst, due to that which I have presented by noting the SCRIPTURES within the OP! Which YOU (an others) have yet to address!
Whats the problem? Is it necessary for me to repeat the Scriptures?
FIRST — God is not “hard at work” in the process of Salvation… It IS AN ETERNAL UNCHANGING FACT, before even 1 tick of the FINITE CLOCK had even expired – Rev 13:8 –
The DECLARATION of YHVH, was of things NOT YET DONE (which is everything, for nothing had been “done”) – was noted END to BEGINNING… and that it is being manifest “on the finite clock” does not in the slightest affect the fact that ALL is already WRITTEN/SPOKEN within the ETERNAL WORD and already, FULLY REALIZED in the realm of YHVH… even though you and I, trudge along moment by moment within this natural and finite realm.
As long as one views the SPIRITUAL/ETERNAL, and then attempts to deduce it in NATURAL/FINITE terms due to observation of NATURAL/FINITE manifestation, …one shall know nothing of the ETERNAL, and its power shall be inert in that one, as they actively require NATURAL/FINITE realization must be manifest, in order that anything actually, “BE”.
SECOND — Please bro Bob… I am not “disparaging” anyone or anything… I have presented SCRIPTURAL question which poses OPPOSITION to an UNBIBLICAL entity, which many Christians (likely yourself included) hold as sacred, as well as teach others, the “trinity” to be an existent entity even though these SCRIPTURAL notations defy such a notion…
Not only that, but many “christian” organizations CONDEMN to “heresy” anyone that proposes opposition to the “trinity”, to the point of removing (as if THEY have this power), SALVATION from said OPPOSER!
THIRD — In that, you in your own strawman way, make this answer about ME… instead of addressing the WORDS of YHVH which DISINCLUDE any other entity other than HIMSELF as being GOD…
Just start with Ex 20:1-3, TV! — the FATHER which is YHVH… is describing that it is UNLAWFUL to hold ANYTHING or ANYONE above HIM, or to be worshipped as “God”… So if indeed I am correct and the “trinity” is an invention of THEOLOGY and THEOLOGIANS… then this FIRST of GOD’s LAWS, notes the “trinity” as a SINFUL belief to embrace!
Recalcitrant? Wherein is the use of this word profitable, TV? Why not communicate in common terminology Bob? Try maybe DEFIANT, or RESISTANT… which the uneducated such as myself, might gain from reading your words, without the encumberance of deciphering, or time spent in a dictionary?
No offense Bob… but if one seeks to be WISE, …ones TESTIMONY shall be SIMPLE – Psalm 19:7
As far as those who are convinced of “evolution”… they are of the “recalcitrant” community, which in their own arrogance and complexities, using like (complex) terminology as part of an agenda to weary or to overwhelm those who… had their presentation been done in SIMPLICITY, might OPPOSE them, …had they used simpler terms in an effort to COMMUNICATE instead of exalting themselves, via the (falsely implied) “superiority” of their vocabulary.
Some intellectuals have so fooled themselves into this esteem, that they do not KNOW HOW to communicate, except in the INTELLECTUAL arena…
I have been a pro (self taught) musician for over 45 years… and have been laughed at by some which thought themselves superior to me… as they bought drinks, and listened to ME… paying my paycheck, so which of us really had the laugh that was WORTH anything?
Their uncommunicative (albeit highly trained) JAZZ remaining INERT… and useless… for they learned NOT, that the MAJORITY of the world IS NOT intellectual, and a true intellect, shall take its depth of perception and talent, and employ it as a pathway to success by learning to condescend (not looking down, but …relating) to those of lesser mental capacities… and thereby COMMUNICATE WITH THEM!
Please, TV… YHVH does not need either YOUR or MY assistance in coordinating the pathway of JeffA – **Prov 20:24 – 16:1 – 21:1 – Jer 10:23 – Psalm 33:13-15 **…
As I share, I do not expect results… in speaking of and about GOD, …I leave any and everything I write in HIS CAPABLE hand, to use or not at HIS descretion, and have been doing so for quite some time…
Why? I did not start this topic, for it to DIE of being ignored! I think the “trinity” is serious business, that those with ears to hear, shall take a moment to investigate what the WORD actually teaches concerning the “personage” of God.
Why not address the TOPIC, instead of the internal interaction of individuals within it, bro? I believe the title alone of this “discussion” is a large enough spectrum to busy us ALL without the distraction of “social issues” to cloud it up!
I LOVE all God’s kids (which encompasses the entirety of the Human race!)… so we are definitely on the “same page” in that respect, brother Bob.
At this point, …it would be nice to see someone, …ANYONE address my questions in the OP!
"] / Luke 18:19 but ONE [not “[u]Me”]
I’m coming into this discussion late and don’t have time to read this whole thread, so excuse me if this has already been brought up.
But what do you make of this passage:
It seems to me that Jesus was here implying that the Christ was God’s own Son. Also, David gives Him the same title that he gives God.
EDIT: Fair enough, in the Psalm reference different words are used, “YHWH” for the first instance of Lord, and “Adonai” for the second. But wasn’t “Adonai” used for God, if I’m not mistaken?
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I’m coming into this discussion late and don’t have time to read this whole thread, so excuse me if this has already been brought up.
But what do you make of this passage:
It seems to me that Jesus was here implying that the Christ was God’s own Son. Also, David gives Him the same title that he gives God.
EDIT: Fair enough, in the Psalm reference different words are used, “YHWH” for the first instance of Lord, and “Adonai” for the second. But wasn’t “Adonai” used for God, if I’m not mistaken?
Hi SR It is not a strange thing for a child to have the same name as his father. Especially in olden days the father often named their firstborn after themselves. When John the Baptist was born the people thought his father would name him after himself as that was the custom at the time and it was strange to them that John’s father named him John.
God the Father is known by many names, but the greatest name that we can know the Father by is that of His son Jesus, for the Father named His firstborn after Himself. Thus when we pray to Jesus we are not only praying to the son but also to the Father.
Remember that CHRIST made the CLEAR admission that (as a MAN) …He DID NOTHINGOF HIMSELF – John 5:19, 30 – Which means that as a MAN… His EVERY “doing” was always directed by YHVH (the Father)…
The WORD of YHVH does NOT “do” other than that which IS the Father YHVH…
This is the essence of the perception of ones “word”: ----> When YOU give your “WORD”… it is a presentation of WHO you ARE (not a separate presence, but an “OUTWARD” communication of YOUR “inner” SELF)… and it is also something which, if INTEGRITY, TRUTH and HONESTY are a part… shall be MANIFEST exactly as IT is GIVEN…
That YHVH calls His WORD “lord” is and extension of HIS OWN position, as “His WORD” is expressed… IOW the WORD of YHVH …IS… YHVH expressed outwardly.
It is NOT a separate “person”, apart from Himself… it IS Himself communicated to others… just as YOUR “word” is a communication (of your inward SELF as) expressed to others… “Your word” is not a separate person or entity… rather it is INWARD “YOU” expressed OUTWARDLY… And it remains singularly, YOU…
JESUS plainly admitted to being a MAN… and yet the WORD was manifest at all times within His actions and speech.
He was the prototype of what we are becoming… He was BORN with the fulness of DIVINITY in Him… and YHVH, in the course of His life, was manifest at all times during it… and in all men, is the notation of Good and Evil being MADE manifest according to His WORD, which contains those notations in a LIVING presentation.
ALL things “MADE” (including these vessels of “DISHONOR” – Rom 9:21) are MADE by the WORD – John 1:3 – Col 1:16
The SONS (body) of YHVH begin and end (with the HEAD of the Body) JESUS CHRIST, which is FIRST and PREEMINENT in all things… for HE is the FIRST Son to contain ALL (fulness of YHVH), …of the “ALL” in which YHVH shall be known in, as “ALL” – 1 Cor 15:28 – 1 Cor 12:6
ALPHA = CHRIST = Son of MAN with the fullness of YHVH within – Beginning of this realm – Slain from (before – at the arrival of) its foundation – Rev 13:8 – 1 Pet 1:18-20
OMEGA = CHRIST = the balance of huMANity with the fullness of YHVH within – end of this realm — Redeeming all by (the arrival of) its conclusion – John 6:44 – John 12:31
ALL things having been PUT UNDER Him… by YHVH… which are ALL subject to YHVH forever permeated by Him…
isn’t it possible that God is both Triune, and One?
i’ve read and basically agree with much of the concordance article posted earlier in the thread. the alternate possiblility of a Subordinationist Trinitarian model can potentially incorporate both the Supreme Godhood of the Father, as well as the deity of the Son and Spirit, and the ontological and eternal unity of all three.
this has got to be one of my favorite topics in all of Christian theology… incredibly fun to hash-out, discuss, and compare notes on. what do you all think? Unitarian and Trinitarian, both?
God calls us to REASON, with Him – Isaiah 1:18 – What REASON is found in 3 being 1?
And if the “trinity” were really TRUE… why is it not EXPLICITLY explained to us by engaging REASON, …that we might CORRECTLY, and RIGHTEOUSLY adhere to the 1st commandment?
Are YOU “triune”, Grace?
Are you made in THEIR image?
Which “ME” are we to have as GOD in position #1, according to Ex 20:1-3?
How can “ME”, …be “WE”?
Ex 20:3 is YHVH saying “thou shalt have no other gods before ME”… not “US”!
I have yet to come across a translation where ME is found “us” in the FIRST commandment:
Exodus 20:3 (English Standard Version) You shall have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:3 (Contemporary English Version) Do not worship any god except me.
Exodus 20:3 (American Standard Version) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:3 (Darby Translation) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:3 (Today’s New International Version) You shall have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:3 (Young’s Literal Translation) Thou hast no other Gods before Me.
If GOD indeed is a “WE”… then it is misrepresentative for “THEM” to state themselves as “ME” in this verse. And if GOD indeed is a “THEM” configuration, then CONFUSION is officially established in the saying of, …“ME”… in the FIRST commandment of the LAW.
Are there THREE DISTINCT and SEPARATE PERSONS that comprise GRACE? (YOU?)
And if so… which of the “3” of YOU, am I conversing with? Is Grace the name of the other 2?
There is NO Scripture which notes the “trinitarian” suppositions – “God the Son” or “God the Holy Spirit”…
The Scriptures state that YHVH ALONE, IS God… and in HIS own WORDS, …clearly notes that HE is ALONE as God (as my OP notes)
The WORD of God does not support the “trinity”, neither does it make mention of such an “entity”…
It DOES however, …support that YHVH ALONE is God… and the LAW as well as the teachings throughout the Old and New Testaments, to include the words of CHRIST Himself, support this fact.
It might be enjoyable as a discussion premise for you Grace… but as far as teaching it to be TRUTH… the proposal of the “trinity” is another matter entirely.
The “church” in general will DISFELLOWSHIP those who oppose the “trinity”, and then condemn those who oppose the (unbiblical) “trinity”, …by judging then sentencing them to ET.
THAT in itself, is a sad state of affairs for those who call themselves followers of “LOVE” and promoters of the GOSPEL of PEACE.
what is also clear in Scripture that while there is One unique God, that the Son is the image of the invisible God, eternally one with and the same as the Father substantially, and the fullness of God, in flesh.
that the Spirit is sent by the Father and is, essentially, God. and that the three are co-eternal, and One.
the Nicene Creed of 325 says it well, imo. while not negating that there is One God, the Father Almighty, it also describes the coming forth of the Son from the Father, and describes the Son as being of one being or nature with the Father.
which is the only way the incarante Son could indicate Himself when Phillip asked Him to show himself and his fellow disciples the Father (John 14:6-9).
An IMAGE is a REFLECTION. Which means that (only begotten, as well as) ALL SONS will be conformed to the IMAGE in which (the only begotten SON) CHRIST was manifest – Heb 1:3 – and to which ALL other SONS shall become aligned.
[size=150]Substancially[/size]? Where is this “theological” deflection indicated, Grace?
CHRIST is not mentioned to be GOD in the flesh – GOD is an UNCHANGING entity which is SPIRIT – Mal 3:6 – John 4:24
CHRIST is mentioned to have contained WITHIN Him, the fullness of GOD – Acts 17:29 – Rom 1:20 – Col 2:9 – The MANCHRIST – 1 Tim 2:5 – was a MAN… Who, as do ALL MEN:
(1) HAS a GOD and CONFESSED this from His own lips – Mark 15:34 – which FACT is also noted in the writings of His Apostles – Eph 1:3
(2) was TEMPTED – Matt 4:1 – GOD cannot be tempted – James 1:13
(3) DIED –Mark 15:37 – Luke 23:46 – Which NEVER shall occur in the experience of GOD who is EVER lasting… any entity which has INTERRUPTION of LIFE, is NOT “EVER–LASTING” – YHVH has NO BEGINNING of DAYS nor END of LIFE (at any point) –
[size=150]Essentially[/size]? Another “theological” deflection… unfounded in Scripture…
Where is the Scriptural verification of this statement, Grace? NONE of this is stated in the WORD of God, …which is WHY you did not QUOTE it, …FROM IT.
YHVH …IS… Spirit, …and that SPIRIT is HOLY… not a separate “personage”. The “Father” of JESUS was the HOLY SPIRIT – Matt 1:20 – which IS, YHVH…
If the “Holy Spirit” is His “Father” (and that is verified by the Scripture I just noted)… then who is the …“Father”… and why is the “Father” called the FATHER?
Maybe it is your time to let go of this mythical belief. If one holds to beliefs which are NOT stated in the WORD, then it is not the WORD which is the FOUNDATION of the belief.
It is not a bad thing to have “believed” in something, and then let go of a given thing which you have believed, when REASON and LIGHT have availed a different perspective… however, it IS a bad thing to hold on to a belief which has no basis in the WORD of God, after you have been shown that it is NOT founded in the WORD.
If what you have just stated above is TRUE, then it shall be easy for you to DISPLAY the texts within the WORD of God, which FOUND this belief. which you note your statement —> "the Spirit is sent by the Father, and is[size=150]essentially[/size]God, and the three are co-eternal, and One"
Your resorting to the use of such words as “essentially”, or “substancially”, are evidence of the lack of present and WRITTEN, …FACTUAL notation in the Scriptures concerning these assertions.
The “Nicene Creed” is NOT the WORD of God… and basing your heart’s belief in it, shall (one day, if not this day) avail the SAND upon which it stands.
I will agree that CHRIST is one in NATURE with God… but disagree that CHRIST is God, for several things within His life and WORDS, amply show this is an invalid observation.
The WORD notes there is ONE GOD… (not “3 in 1”)…
That God, …is YHVH… which CHRIST Himself confessed to be the ONLY GOD that exists –Matt 19:17 – Mark 10:18 – JESUS deflecting any “glory or credit” unto the ONE to which it is to be given… that being, YHVH God…
JESUS spoke the WORD from its SOURCE, which was within… for the FULLNESS of YHVH dwelt within Him…
He also plainly spoke as a MAN on MANY occasions… Calling Himself the “Son of MAN”, over and again…
There is no Scripture that notes that JESUS was “God incarnate”… The WORD is in all men… but is yet UNREVEALED in and to most. This is according to the workings of YHVH which works ALL THINGS according to the advisements of HIS OWN WILL – Eph 1:11
It is the WORD (which ISYHVH) that IS the Father, and is projected IN the Sons… beginning with CHRIST, and eventually in ALL…
When YOU give “YOUR WORD” in promise to someone Grace, is it not a proclamation of the verification of YOURSELF, Grace? Or is there a “separate someone” IN you that is providing the verification?
We being MADE in the IMAGE of God… shall BE as He (not “they”)…IS… which is ONE person.
You and I are not MULTIPLE in personage INTERNALLY, even though we as INDIVIDUAL and SINGULAR beings, are manifest in MANY different ways and capacities EXTERNALLY… I am a Father, Son, Grandfather, Friend, co-worker, Uncle, Nephew, Husband, Brother, neighbor, tax payer, musician, etc… but only ONE PERSON is ALL of these!
[size=150]In conclusion[/size]…
Because of all that I have just stated, …you might ask me, …willieH >>> is CHRIST your lord? To which I shall heartily answer, …YES…
Then you might ask, “WHY and HOW is that”? To which I shall answer, …Because He (via the WILL of GOD), is the WORTHY LAMB …OF GOD… (which is not God, of Himself) – Rev 5:12 – and He is also, the CAPTAIN of our Salvation – Heb 2:10 – His position as Lord is given Him by GOD… and He is therefore my “LORD”… BEFORE me, and over me… due any and all HONOR that I might in the strength given me of GOD to give unto Him for the MAJESTY of His sacrifice for me.
Not because …HE… is “GOD”, …but because YHVH GOD has given Him to be LORD of and over ALL exceptYHVH GOD – 1 Cor 15:27-28
Furthermore, CHRIST shall EVER be subject to YHVH, …not the reverse, …nor THE EQUAL of YHVH, …Rather the PRIMARY OFFSPRING of the Parent of ALL, …known as YHVH God.
i basically agree with you, W. except that i’d argue that Christ the Word having the same nature as the Father makes Him, essentially, God.
Scripture also tells us that the fullness of God dwelt in Christ, bodily. that Christ the Word who is of the same nature as God and the same substance and therefor God, became fully God and fully Man through the incarnation.
not that He is the Father, but that He can be and is Son, Messiah, and Servant, and still be fully and completely God in His nature and His being, even while being very clearly a Man. under and from the Father, yet worthy to be called God in function, and person.
The WORD emerges from GOD – Isaiah 55:11– John 3:16 – It does NOT act of itself… CHRIST even confessed that “I do NOTHING of MYSELF”…
ALL the Sons of GOD are “gods”, because YHVH says they are – Psalm 82:6 – and CHRIST even quoted this Scripture as the Pharisees claimed Him to BLASPHEME by calling Himself the SON of GOD – John 10:34
God’s “offspring” are essentially images of Himself… just as we see that OUR children resemble us in stature, looks, and ability.
This it Theological assumption… Men become SONS of GOD, because they already ARE in the ETERNAL. All that exists has ALWAYS been… most just do not see this. Acts 17:28 notes that we IN HIM, we live, and move and have our being…
We being IN HIM (which never changes, and has ALWAYS BEEN), means that WE being part of HIM, have ALWAYS BEEN, a part of HIM YHVH] which has ALWAYS BEEN, and NEVER CHANGES (becomes other than HE IS).
Your words sister Grace… are expressions of YOU… they are NOT a separate entity apart from YOU. Also… they do not COMPOSE who you are in your entirety, except in the determination of yourself to use them to EXPRESS who and what that “entirety” IS.
You desire to cling to theology… and that is your right. I have already stated more than enough proof that this theology is amiss (in just the OP alone, to which NO ONE has responded), but it is not my intention to change your mind… Either God shall use my words concerning you, or He shall not, that is HIS CALL and decision…
JESUS by CONFESSION (as I have already noted) from HIs own lips, that there is only ONE GOD (which was HIS GOD as well as ours), to which HE deferred ALL HONOR unto…
YHVH does NOT “have a GOD”… for HE ALONE, …IS GOD.
willieH,** please refrain from saying that “NO ONE has responded” to your OP.** That is false. Over a year ago, I spent a lot of time trying to understand all of the extraordinary complications in your beliefs explained in your posts. I needed to ask you various questions for me to comprehend your writing and beliefs. And I eventually compiled all of your questions from the OP and replies to me while I answered those questions.
Perhaps you don’t like my answers because they disagree with the theology of willieH, but please stop saying that NO ONE has responded. For the record, see below:
For myself I have no problem with Jesus being God as I believe He is God.
However, Jesus is NOT God the Father, never was , never will be.
Jesus always made a distinction between Himself and the Father and that distinction is good enough for me.
For those who take Jesus’ statement the Father and I are one to mean that Jesus is saying He is God the Father is not logical for Jesus also says the WE are to be one with the Father as He himself is one with the Father. Are we then to assume we are also God the Father? Hardly
There is only ONE God the Father, Jesus is not HIM and neither are we.
Yes Jesus is God and was made flesh, but to take those scriptures to mean John was speaking of the Father being made flesh is to undo the sacrifice the Father made in sending His SON Jesus for us.
The Jews in the times just after the time of Christ also stumbled in this same area believing that the Messiah was God the Father using this scripture to prove that God/Father will not give His glory to another.
Isaiah 42:8
8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
But that is NOT what that scripture is saying, read it in context.
Isaiah 42:5-13
5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. 9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. 10 Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof. 11 Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. 12 Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands.
13 The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.
The Father is NOT saying He will keep His glory unto Himself, the Father IS saying that He will only give His glory unto Christ and NO OTHER. For is it not Christ who is the light of the Gentiles?, is it Not Christ who delivers out of the prison houses? is it not Christ who opens the eyes of the blind?
Jesus is God, He is just NOT God the Father.
Numbers 21:8-9
8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
This serpent of brass point us to Christ
John 3:12-14
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Jesus is God, but Jesus is NOT God the Father they are two different persons, the trinity doctrine is in error.
Those who worship Jesus as God the Father/trinity doctrine error after the same fashion as the children of Israel once did, making an idol out of Christ.
2 Kings 18:3-4
3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did. 4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.
John 1:1-2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.
If you pay close attention to the wording here you will see that not only is Jesus Christ God, but you will see the Father God. Two very distinct persons.
Let me paraphrase this a bit so that you can see what I am seeing.
In the beginning was the Word (Jesus Christ), and the Word (Jesus Christ) was with God (the Father), and the Word was God (Jesus Christ). 2 The same was in the beginning with God (the Father)
So what we have is
In the beginning was Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ was with the Father, and Jesus Christ was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with the Father.
These scriptures are NOT speaking of God the Father being manifested in the flesh and dwelling among us, they are talking about God the Son being manifested in the flesh and dwelling among us.
This is brought out in verse 14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Is it really such a strange thing that the Son of God should also be a God himself?
And God said, Let US make man in our image, after OUR likeness
Another scripture used to support the trinity is where Thomas says my Lord and my God.
Thomas was not calling Jesus Lord and God, but rather when He looked at Jesus Thomas saw in Jesus both his Lord and his God.
It is the same thing when people look at us, they are not suppose to see just us, but are suppose to see CHRIST in US.
How about you Jeff? 
Come on dear brother… Please note to me the “railing and spitting” comments I have made to you. If you cannot, it is the DISCOMFORT of your own position in LIFE, that feels so assaulted… mainly because the TRUTH, at times… HURTS. If you actually really BELIEVED that there is NO GOD, or even if just UNCONVINCED… you would have some BASIS for this, other than just because you haven’t “seen Him” lately… The AIR exists, even though no one has ever SEEN IT… People “believe” other places EXIST in the World, even though they have NEVER SEEN THEM… come on.
