Hi Qohelet, I’ll reply assuming that you meant to say that you never seen the Trinity described by a coherent model.: ) Please correct me if I’m wrong.
I recall around 1990 when I prayed and struggled to find an analogy for the Trinity. To my surprise, I read an article in a business magazine that gave me the analogy. I read about US business partnerships. These partnerships involve two or more partners while each partner fully represents the partnership in all legal matters such as the ability to make binding contracts. Here we have an example of multiple people with all the power of the partnership while they are always one partnership.
I also saw two differences between business partnerships and the Trinity:
All partnerships began at some point in time while the Trinity always existed
Actions of business partners sometimes conflict with each other and cause problems while the Trinity always works together in harmony
Certainly [size=150]NOT[/size] ALL the verses I mentioned in the OP in Isaiah… where YHVH maintains HE ALONE is GOD and there is NONE “beside Him”
I’ll say more about this in my next post to you… let me address the portion of your answer which attempts to provide basis for the “trinity”:
ALL SONS “preexisted” Jim… Job 38:7 says [size=150]ALL[/size] the SONS of God were present at the creation of this world… This is a must, for how can things which are NOT ETERNAL (had beginning), be a part of a scenario which has NO BEGINNING and NO END? They would be introductions which do not FIT the scenario… Oil & Water if you will… both liquids, but one is, and always will be SEPARATE from the other.
ALL Sons have come from an ETERNAL existence, into TIME for the PURPOSE of learning GOOD and EVIL… once ALL Sons have entered and exited this process, then TIME is dispensed with (LAST DAY - John 6:39, 40, 44, 54 / John 11:24, 12:48)… along with all its properties - decay, sin, evil, loss, sorrow, pain, sufferings, etc.
That CHRIST in this verse [John 17:5] notes that He was GLORIFIED with YHVH’s indwelling prior to this world, does NOT name Him GOD – of Himself… it truly names Him as GLORIFIED, before stepping into the TIME of EVIL… as were ALL Sons before they make this journey IN the “time” of SIN and Evil…
CHRIST being the ONE Son that was the SINLESS exception… and therefore WORTHY to be the REDEEMING sacrifice…
The GLORY CHRIST had with the Father YHVH, is that YHVH in ETERNITY …IS… ALL in ALL (1 Cor 15:28)… Wherever YHVH is (in ALL), there is GLORY present… and He is found SHARING that GLORY with His SONS… in ETERNITY, not IN TIME…
ONLY ONE Son is GLORIFIED in TIME… that being His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON (sired by YHVH - NO earthly father)…
GOD never “becomes” anything, for to “become” something entails CHANGE, which the Scripture notes does NOT take place in either YHVH (Mal 3:6), nor in JESUS CHRIST - (Heb 13:8)
The reason for Ps 82:6 and CHRIST’s reference to this Scripture John 10:34… is because in ETERNAL terms YHVH …IS… ALL in ALL… but IN TIME, CHRIST is the firstfruit and the ONLY SON to have the FULLNESS of YHVH indwelling during the course of TIME, all OTHERS get but a MEASURE of DIVINITY while within TIME …Rom 12:3…
FAITH is the PRESENCE of DIVINTY (holiness)… for whatsoever is NOT of FAITH, is SIN… (unholiness)
No one is arguing that the MANCHRIST, is not a “person”… the argument is, …is that MAN, …GOD?
The answer to that question was answered by CHRIST Himself… When HE of HIS OWN WORDS, stated He has a GOD – Mark 15:34…
The portion of Him that was YHVH (who is GOD ALONE), removed Himself from the MANCHRIST, that CHRIST (the only begotten HUMAN son) might DIE and thereby redeem lost humanity… GOD, cannot DIE He is EVERLASTING… for GOD is LIFE…
Lets take these one at a time, shall we?
But FIRST, before I address these 3 Scriptures… where is the word '“PERSON” found in ANY of them Jim? You herein make an ASSUMPTION and an ADDITION to what is said in these verses… for the word “PERSON” is absent in ALL of them. That said…
John 14:6 …JESUS is speaking as Himself to be the only PATHWAY to TRUTH and LIFE… There is no other pathway to YHVH except by the WORD of YHVH…
The WORD of GOD is on the same program as YOUR “word” James You are MADE in HIS IMAGE! …Is YOUR “WORD” a SEPARATE “PERSON” from yourself? Of course not… YOU …ARE… your word (as is GOD).
It is GOD’s WORD which produces ALL THINGS… to include ALL SONS… all things EMERGE and have their establishment and existence in the WORD of YHVH…
Also… in several instances (I’ve already named one), CHRIST spoke as a MAN, separate from His GOD who INDWELT Him and WHO …IS… the WORD which was manifest both in the ACTIONS and WORDS of His Human Son (Son of MAN) – JESUS CHRIST… (Mk 10:18 / Luke 18:19 - CHRIST in these verses defers praise to His Father – who is GOD and who is ONE - not 3)
It amazes me that Christians cannot see the TITLES employed in the Scriptures alone, …of FATHER and SON represent PARENT and OFFSPRING!!
Lets move on to your other verses Jim…
John 15:6 …This verse is not referring to another PERSON… neither does NAME the “comforter” to be other than YHVH… The “SPIRIT” which proceeds from YHVH… IS… YHVH!!!
When YOU do things to comfort another person, …is it another PERSON other than YOU, …Jim?
John 16:7 …this verse is not stating that the “comforter” is other than YHVH… CHRIST is here speaking as YHVH… which is the SON of GOD because YHVH is ALL in Him… (The fullness of DIVINITY dwelling in Him - Col 2:9)
You in your observation (IMO) are missing the perception that CHRIST named Himself Son of MAN, and SON of GOD… Was He 2 different PERSONS Jim? A “split personality”?
What is truth is that, SONSHIP which is GOD, is the PORTION of us that IS YHVH …IN US, …not the MAN portion which FAILS to find HOLINESS of itself, within this TIME of EVIL…
There are 5 titles given in Is 9:6… does that mean there are FIVE, Jim? Do these FIVE notations mean GOD is a QUINTITY?
Is 9:6 …His NAME [not names] shall be called (1) Wonderful (2) counsellor (3) the mighty God (4) the everlasting Father (5) the prince of Peace…
Okay, WillieH. I see that you reject teaching about the original deity of Christ. I’ll return with a scripural defense for the original diety of Christ.
Before I state my reply… I would like to ask you… WHY do you AVOID my questions? If your 'trinity" is TRUTH, you should easily be able to REFUTE what I say… WHAT is keeping you from addressing the Scriptures that I noted in the OP in Isaiah Jim? WHERE is the “trinity” in them?
What it comes down to, is that you just don’t get my belief brother… and might I say, that you are welcome to defend what you believe… I look forward to that defense…
CHRIST had DIETY COMPLETELY permeating Him… COMPLETELY by the ONLY GOD that IS GOD… YHVH… which presence and permeation MADE Him GOD… it was NOT DUE to Himself, or anything HE did… for He testified: I can, …OF MYSELF… [size=200]do[/size] NOTHING… (John 5:30) …Believest thou this brother Jim?
EXAMPLES:
(1) If a METAL CAN is FILLED with METAL… what part of the CAN is NOT METAL, Jim? Or,
(2) An empty PLASTIC container is filled with liquid PLASTIC, …what part of the container is thereby, not PLASTIC Jim? Because the container is filled does not mean that it is no longer a container, does it? …but filling it with PLASTIC, means that which was once was HOLLOW is now FILLED… and THROUGHOUT it, it is found to be PLASTIC…
THIS is what is to come for EVERY Human that has EVER LIVED…
DIETY is a fact of ALL the Sons of GOD… but CHRIST is LORD of LORDS for He is the ONLY Human being which did NOT SIN while in this lifetime even though being TEMPTED, just as ARE WE…
ALL the SONS of GOD (YOU included dear brother), are OFFSPRING of GOD, which makes them in Eternity, …GOD! NOT “of themselves” but because YHVH chooses to PERMEATE His Sons… AS He did CHRIST… with FULL MEASURE…
The Human race, literally has no idea what is in store for it… It is so blinded by unholiness and sin, that it cannot even gain vision of what is REALLY taking place… This is so much BIGGER than any of us can realize, that we could gather ALL the JOY ever experienced in the history of MAN, and it would not even equate to ONE MOMENT in the KINGDOM of YHVH in ETERNITY…
This is not just about “being saved” brother… it is about the COMPLETION of the HOLY FAMILY of the GOD of the HEAVENS and the UNIVERSE!!!
It will be okay, when it happens that you will remember that, “I toldya so”… Because THAT will be part of the JOY bro…
Just as the OFFSPRING of a CAT is a CAT, the OFFSPRING of a FLY is a FLY, the OFFSPRING of a HUMAN is a HUMAN… and the OFFSPRING of GOD, is GOD…
Most will not allow themselves to entertain this thought, because they “feel” is it BLASPHEMY… but I say if YHVH permeates (ALL in ALL) all of HIS SONS… then what part of them is NOT GOD?
How can you TRULY call GOD your FATHER, and then deny that you are an COMPLETE OFFSPRING of Him? JUST like HIM… in EVERY detail! With ACCESS to ALL His POWER, and ALL His UNENDING, UNLIMITED LOVE… it is just mind boggling!!! …
I like to remember the moment I fell in LOVE with my wife, 33 wonderful years ago… It was SO ALL encompassing and permeating to me, that NOTHING mattered above it… We were BOTH searching for GOD… and we were BOTH in situations that were LESS than GODLY… but through a BIBLE study… our LOVE was born for EACH OTHER, and IN that, we BOTH found our Savior and Father…
I tell you that, GOD has revealed to me that this event will be dwarfed by the COMING of JESUS CHRIST to redeem mankind… and yet, I cannot even find ANYTHING that REMOTELY compares or even approaches comparision, to that GRANDEST moment I fell in LOVE with the LOVE of my life… as we BOTH fell in LOVE, together with JESUS CHRIST…
YHVH permeated CHRIST COMPLETELY and PERFECTLY… which made Him GOD… because even though He was Human, there was no portion of Him that did not contain HIS and OUR FATHER, …YHVH…
WillieH, I have limited [time] to respond to questions and challenges on this board. And I try to focus on primary issues instead of going point for point with everybody. In your case, I need to deal with primary issues to best deal with all of your questions and challenges. I’m sorry if this in inconvenient for you, but it’s the best that I can do with my time and resources.
This is true, but I’m getting closer to understanding your belief from your last post. I admit that sometimes it takes me time to understand various beliefs while I tend to understand them after a while.
I’m still trying to understand the implications of your belief. Here are some of my views:
My beliefs include that Christ created all rulers and authorities in heaven and earth (John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:15-20). Christ is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End (Revelation 22:12-13). And Christ is worthy of worship (Matthew 14:33, 28:9; Luke 24:52; John 9:38).
Incidentally, I have now posted an attached .doc in the Biblical theology forum, summarizing and discussing a very large array of scriptural references from which trinitarians arrive (scripturally speaking) at trinitarianism.
Since I’ve been already concentrating on this topic for several weeks, I’ll now be taking a vacation from it for a while, in order to write some things on the actual primary topic of this forum, before coming back to start picking up and discussing Willie’s various objections over the past several weeks. 76 pages of report and analysis from me ought to be enough to chew on until then…
Aside from the Opening Post, …all I see is EXCUSES from “trinitarians”, as replies to my OP… PURPOSELY avoiding answering the questions posed in that OP, …to those which believe in the “multiplicity” of GOD…
Look me up, when you (trinitarians) wish to actually address my questions… (and please dont use a computer LINKS as an answer, I am well able to do the same… An answer in a discussion, is born of YOUR KNOWLEDGE, not the words found written by another. If you cannot express your belief without computer links, then your “belief” is really NOT within your KNOWLEDGE)
A discussion is as follows:
(1) I ask questions THEN
(2) YOU answer them, which gives you a right to ask ME questions, which
(3) obligates me to respond to them because YOU had the courtesy and knowledge to answer mine.
Thank you for putting together an original 76-page paper on the topic of the biblical basis for belief in the Trinity. And I agree that you needed to post the paper as a document because of its size. In my free time, I’m working on a smaller post on the same topic that I can post with the normal method.
I’ll address various points about the Trinity and sons of God in regards to your beliefs posted in this topic. Due to my time constraints, I’ll do it in two parts. Here is part one. I’ll return with part two. I don’t know the day or hour, but I’ll return. I guess that you’ll keep to your word and not respond until I answer the questions that you asked. I’ll work on compiling those questions.
Here are Bible verses that support the belief in the Trinity.
The Old Testament (OT) has many verses that teach that there only one God and God is alone (Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 44:6), which is an intricate part of trinitarian belief. All scriptures that teach that God is one or alone support the belief in the Trinity.
The OT teaches about the Father, your Creator (Deuteronomy 32:6).
The OT teaches about the Son who is the Messiah. For example, Messianic Prophecy in Zechariah 14 teaches that the Lord will stand on the Mountain of Olives. And Messianic Prophecy in Daniel 7:13-14 describes the Messiah with the Ancient of Days who is the Father.
The OT teaches about the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2, Psalm 51:11, Isaiah 63:10-11).
Matthew 4:10 teaches that we should worship the Lord your God alone; Matthew 14:33 and 28:9 teach that the apostles worshiped Jesus; Matthew 26:42 describes Jesus praying to the Father; and Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34 teach that Jesus has a God.
John 5:19 teaches that the Father never works without the Son.
No human has seen God except the only Son of God who himself is God. John 1:18 TNIV, “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only [Son], who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.”
The New Testament (NT) teaches that Christ created all rulers and authorities in heaven and earth (John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:15-20).
Isaiah 44:6 says that the Lord Almighty is the first and the last, and apart from the Lord Almighty there is no God.
Revelation 21:6 says that God is the Alpha (first) and the Omega (last), the Beginning and the End.
Revelation 22:12-13 says that Christ is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Matthew 1:18-20, 3:11, 12:32, and 28:19 teach about the Holy Spirit while implying that the Holy Spirit is a person.
Mark 1:8, 3:29, 12:36, and 13:11 teach about the Holy Spirit while implying that the Holy Spirit is a person.
Luke 3:21-22 shows the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together.
John 14:14, 26; 15:26; 16:7 teach that the Holy Spirit is a person.
2 Corinthians 3:17-18 and 13:14 teach that the Lord is the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit.
The Son incarnated to die for the sins of humans (1 Corinthians 15:3) and to be an example of submitting to God and overcoming temptation (Matthew 4:10, Luke 4:8). And as I noted earlier, the Son has a God (Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34).
All of these Bible teachings fit together. As we see from the verses above, the Bible teaches the following: there is one Lord God; the Father is God; the Son who is the one and only is God; the Holy Spirit is God; the three persons of God are one God; the three persons of God have equal authority in regards to eternal origin; the three persons of God revealed themselves in a hierarchal order to help teach humans about authority and submission; all other persons are created by the partnership of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Concerning Job 38:4-7, the implication of this passage per the tone in 38:4 is that Job was not there when the Lord laid the foundations of the earth. The reference to all the sons of God shouting for joy when the Lord laid the foundations of the earth refers to the sons of God that existed at that time. And the fact the Lord had not yet laid down the foundations of the earth does not mean that time had not yet began. God existed before time (1 Corinthians 2:7, Titus 1:2). And John 1:18 teaches that the Son who is the one and only is God. The Bible clearly teaches that the Son of God who created all things is categorically different than all other sons of God who are created. And the Bible never teaches that other sons of God existed before time.
2 Corinthians 13:14 TNIV
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Now if the same rule applies then why is it the world Elohim is plural? Now I’m not hebrew expert and I consider myself to be a man of tolerance but I’d like to hear you explain that God does infact say “LET US”.
Considering that I’ve now spent several weeks working up a very long list of scriptural data and discussion thereof, I would appreciate your patience a little while longer. Providing data to talk about is an important first step toward talking about the data.
I did this while setting aside another fairly large project that was actually in regard to the primary topic of this board (which is universalism), and on which topic I was invited here as a guest author to write about primarily. I am now going back and finishing up that project; after which, as I said, I plan to come back here and start posting replies to things you’ve said here (and previously) on this topic.
You can use this time to familiarize yourself with the data I’m going to talk about, by reading the document I’ve been working on for the past several weeks. Or not. That’s up to you. But answering one of your prior challenges by taking the time to work up and post a document which answers that challenge, is not avoiding your challenge (or questions you’ve asked either), “PURPOSELY” or otherwise. (Aside from which is that you’ve been presenting multiple categories of challenges. That 76 page document partially addresses one category.)
Here is Part Two. I believe I compiled all of your questions from the OP and replies to me. And I answered those questions.
Q1. “trinity”… is there such an entity?
A1. yes
Q2. Does the Bible teach that our GOD, is a “3 person” God?
A2. yes
Q3. Not to mention the continuing usages of I, ME, Mine, Myself, etc… when He speaks of HIMSELF… If there were TWO other “persons”, why are they left out of this?
A3. The scripture in question is not teaching about that part of the Trinity, which is covered in other verses in the Bible.
Q4. I mean these with TOTAL respect of YHVH in order to make a point, …but, if there are THREE, …Is it not it a disrespect for YHVH to name HIMSELF ONLY as GOD, leaving out the other “TWO”?
A4. no
Q5. And if indeed the trinity is truly so, is it not a tone of selfishness, for so many mentions of Scripture to note EXCLUSION of the other “TWO”?
A5. no
Q6. Name one verse that states YHVH “has a GOD”…
A6. Mark 15:34
Q7. Name one verse that states that anyone or anything EVER, “sent” or DIRECTED YHVH in any way…
A7. John 6:44, 7:29, 15:26, 16:7
Q8. Name one verse that states that YHVH does as does (copies) anyone or anything… or is counseled (advised) by anyone or anything… on the contrary - He does ONLY, as HIS WILL counsels – Eph 1:11
A8. John 5:19
Q9. Name one verse that names YHVH has experienced DEATH… On the contrary, …He is EVERLASTING, and is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE… Is 57:15 – He INHABITS eternity, which is without BEGINNING of DAYS or END of LIFE)
A9. 1 Peter 3:18-20
Q10. No one is arguing that the MAN CHRIST, is not a “person”… the argument is, …is that MAN, …GOD?
A10. that man is the Lord God
Q11. Lets take these one at a time, shall we?
A11. okay
Q12. When YOU do things to comfort another person, …is it another PERSON other than YOU, …Jim?
A12. sometimes yes and sometimes no
Q13. You in your observation (IMO) are missing the perception that CHRIST named Himself Son of MAN, and SON of GOD… Was He 2 different PERSONS Jim? A “split personality”?
A13. no
Q14. There are 5 titles given in Is 9:6… does that mean there are FIVE, Jim? Do these FIVE notations mean GOD is a QUINTITY?
A14. no
Q15. Before I state my reply… I would like to ask you… WHY do you AVOID my questions? If your 'trinity" is TRUTH, you should easily be able to REFUTE what I say… WHAT is keeping you from addressing the Scriptures that I noted in the OP in Isaiah Jim? WHERE is the “trinity” in them?
A15. I had a difficult time following the flow and organization of your biblical hermeneutics, defense, and questions while I have limited time and wanted to focus on the primary issues before I answered all of your questions. My previous reply to you explains how all types of Bible verses are consistent with belief in the Trinity.
Q16. CHRIST had DIETY COMPLETELY permeating Him… COMPLETELY by the ONLY GOD that IS GOD… YHVH… which presence and permeation MADE Him GOD… it was NOT DUE to Himself, or anything HE did… for He testified: I can, …OF MYSELF… do NOTHING… (John 5:30) …Believest thou this brother Jim?
A16. no
Q17. Most will not allow themselves to entertain this thought, because they “feel” is it BLASPHEMY… but I say if YHVH permeates (ALL in ALL) all of HIS SONS… then what part of them is NOT GOD?
A17. The Lord has always been omnipresently permeating all creation, but creation is creation and not God while Jesus strictly forbids worshiping anything but the Lord God.
The statement of faith says “we believe in a triune God.”
As a link-poster “bird” I might ruffle some feathers with this one.
SO IN WHAT SENSE IS CHRIST GOD? (My point of view)
All things were made by Jesus Christ (1Cor. 8:6 & Eph. 3:9)
He is God to us by representation and we should worship Him as God.
But He is not God in essence.
He is the same as God to His creatures.
When you are the same as something you cannot be that thing.
“Who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of every creature (Col. 1:15)
I do not agree that people who do not believe that Christ is God in essence are not true Christians. I don’t think it diminishes Christ’s glory in the least if we believe that He is God by representation, rather than in essence.
Christ is the God/man. I can only understand His birth and redemptive accomplishment if He is God - a debt God did not owe and man could not pay (no matter how righteous an individual may be). i.e. The sacrifice of a mere man for the sins of all would have been all wrong. Christ HAD to be the God/man.
…edited by admin to remove some inappropriate namecalling for this forum…]
Indeed, indeed! It mystifies me as to what people think they are adding by diminishing Christ. The whole exercise seems nutty to me. Worshiping a ‘representative’ allows for self-worship - which may be the real motivation behind their ‘problem’.
Certainly [size=150]NOT[/size] ALL the verses I mentioned in the OP in Isaiah… where YHVH maintains HE ALONE is GOD and there is NONE “beside Him” 
It amazes me that Christians cannot see the TITLES employed in the Scriptures alone, …of FATHER and SON represent PARENT and OFFSPRING!! 
Was He 2 different PERSONS Jim? A “split personality”?
Because THAT will be part of the JOY bro… 