"trinity".... is there such an entity?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi SR…

So all He did and said, was about FULFILLING what had already been WRITTEN - the concept of YHVH GOD, existent in 3 persons is not at all founded in the OT…

For YHVH is the Father …to which JESUS referred, and He is ONE which was NOT Himself!!

It is, …NT theology, which brings the other “two” into the picture…

YHVH was One, which CHRIST noted as separate from Himself: …Matt 19:17 but ONE [not "[u]Me"] / Mk 10:18 but ONE [not "[u]Me

"] / Luke 18:19 but ONE [not “[u]Me”]

I’m coming into this discussion late and don’t have time to read this whole thread, so excuse me if this has already been brought up.

But what do you make of this passage:

Matthew 22

41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.
43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,
44 " 'The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.” ’ 45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” 46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

It seems to me that Jesus was here implying that the Christ was God’s own Son. Also, David gives Him the same title that he gives God.

Remember that CHRIST made the CLEAR admission that (as a MAN) …He DID NOTHING OF HIMSELF – John 5:19, 30 – Which means that as a MAN… His EVERY “doing” was always directed by YHVH (the Father)…

The WORD of YHVH does NOT “do” other than that which IS the Father YHVH…

This is the essence of the perception of ones “word”: ----> When YOU give your “WORD”… it is a presentation of WHO you ARE (not a separate presence, but an “OUTWARD” communication of YOUR “inner” SELF)… and it is also something which, if INTEGRITY, TRUTH and HONESTY are a part… shall be MANIFEST exactly as IT is GIVEN…

That YHVH calls His WORD “lord” is and extension of HIS OWN position, as “His WORD” is expressed… IOW the WORD of YHVH …IS… YHVH expressed outwardly.

It is NOT a separate “person”, apart from Himself… it IS Himself communicated to others… just as YOUR “word” is a communication (of your inward SELF as) expressed to others… “Your word” is not a separate person or entity… rather it is INWARD “YOU” expressed OUTWARDLY… And it remains singularly, YOU…

JESUS plainly admitted to being a MAN… and yet the WORD was manifest at all times within His actions and speech.

He was the prototype of what we are becoming… He was BORN with the fulness of DIVINITY in Him… and YHVH, in the course of His life, was manifest at all times during it… and in all men, is the notation of Good and Evil being MADE manifest according to His WORD, which contains those notations in a LIVING presentation.

ALL things “MADE” (including these vessels of “DISHONOR” – Rom 9:21) are MADE by the WORD – John 1:3 – Col 1:16

The SONS (body) of YHVH begin and end (with the HEAD of the Body) JESUS CHRIST, which is FIRST and PREEMINENT in all things… for HE is the FIRST Son to contain ALL (fulness of YHVH), …of the “ALL” in which YHVH shall be known in, as “ALL” – 1 Cor 15:28 – 1 Cor 12:6

ALPHA = CHRIST = Son of MAN with the fullness of YHVH within – Beginning of this realm – Slain from (before – at the arrival of) its foundation – Rev 13:8 – 1 Pet 1:18-20

OMEGA = CHRIST = the balance of huMANity with the fullness of YHVH within – end of this realm — Redeeming all by (the arrival of) its conclusion – John 6:44 – John 12:31

ALL things having been PUT UNDER Him… by YHVH… which are ALL subject to YHVH forever permeated by Him…

…willieH

[Grace]

isn’t it possible that God is both Triune, and One?

i’ve read and basically agree with much of the concordance article posted earlier in the thread. the alternate possiblility of a Subordinationist Trinitarian model can potentially incorporate both the Supreme Godhood of the Father, as well as the deity of the Son and Spirit, and the ontological and eternal unity of all three.

christian-history.org/defini … inity.html

this has got to be one of my favorite topics in all of Christian theology… incredibly fun to hash-out, discuss, and compare notes on. what do you all think? Unitarian and Trinitarian, both?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Grace…

God calls us to REASON, with Him – Isaiah 1:18 – What REASON is found in 3 being 1?

And if the “trinity” were really TRUE… why is it not EXPLICITLY explained to us by engaging REASON, …that we might CORRECTLY, and RIGHTEOUSLY adhere to the 1st commandment?

isn’t it possible that God is both Triune, and One?

Are YOU “triune”, Grace?
Are you made in THEIR image?
Which “ME” are we to have as GOD in position #1, according to Ex 20:1-3?
How can “ME”, …be “WE”?

Ex 20:3 is YHVH saying “thou shalt have no other gods before ME”… not “US”!

I have yet to come across a translation where ME is found “us” in the FIRST commandment:

Exodus 20:3 (English Standard Version) You shall have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:3 (Contemporary English Version) Do not worship any god except me.
Exodus 20:3 (American Standard Version) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:3 (Darby Translation) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:3 (Today’s New International Version) You shall have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:3 (Young’s Literal Translation) Thou hast no other Gods before Me.

If GOD indeed is a “WE”… then it is misrepresentative for “THEM” to state themselves as “ME” in this verse. And if GOD indeed is a “THEM” configuration, then CONFUSION is officially established in the saying of, …“ME”… in the FIRST commandment of the LAW.

Are there THREE DISTINCT and SEPARATE PERSONS that comprise GRACE? (YOU?)

And if so… which of the “3” of YOU, am I conversing with? Is Grace the name of the other 2?

i’ve read and basically agree with much of the concordance article posted earlier in the thread. the alternate possiblility of a Subordinationist Trinitarian model can potentially incorporate both the Supreme Godhood of the Father, as well as the deity of the Son and Spirit, and the ontological and eternal unity of all three.

There is NO Scripture which notes the “trinitarian” suppositions – “God the Son” or “God the Holy Spirit”…

The Scriptures state that YHVH ALONE, IS God… and in HIS own WORDS, …clearly notes that HE is ALONE as God (as my OP notes)

The WORD of God does not support the “trinity”, neither does it make mention of such an “entity”…

It DOES however, …support that YHVH ALONE is God… and the LAW as well as the teachings throughout the Old and New Testaments, to include the words of CHRIST Himself, support this fact.

this has got to be one of my favorite topics in all of Christian theology… incredibly fun to hash-out, discuss, and compare notes on. what do you all think? Unitarian and Trinitarian, both?

It might be enjoyable as a discussion premise for you Grace… but as far as teaching it to be TRUTH… the proposal of the “trinity” is another matter entirely.

The “church” in general will DISFELLOWSHIP those who oppose the “trinity”, and then condemn those who oppose the (unbiblical) “trinity”, …by judging then sentencing them to ET.

THAT in itself, is a sad state of affairs for those who call themselves followers of “LOVE” and promoters of the GOSPEL of PEACE.

…willieH

[Grace]

what is also clear in Scripture that while there is One unique God, that the Son is the image of the invisible God, eternally one with and the same as the Father substantially, and the fullness of God, in flesh.

that the Spirit is sent by the Father and is, essentially, God. and that the three are co-eternal, and One.

the Nicene Creed of 325 says it well, imo. while not negating that there is One God, the Father Almighty, it also describes the coming forth of the Son from the Father, and describes the Son as being of one being or nature with the Father.

which is the only way the incarante Son could indicate Himself when Phillip asked Him to show himself and his fellow disciples the Father (John 14:6-9).

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Grace…

Thanks for your reply…

what is also clear in Scripture that while there is One unique God, that the Son is the image of the invisible God, eternally

An IMAGE is a REFLECTION. Which means that (only begotten, as well as) ALL SONS will be conformed to the IMAGE in which (the only begotten SON) CHRIST was manifest – Heb 1:3 – and to which ALL other SONS shall become aligned.

one with and the same as the Father substantially, and the fullness of God, in flesh

[size=150]Substancially[/size]? Where is this “theological” deflection indicated, Grace?

CHRIST is not mentioned to be GOD in the flesh – GOD is an UNCHANGING entity which is SPIRIT – Mal 3:6 – John 4:24

CHRIST is mentioned to have contained WITHIN Him, the fullness of GOD – Acts 17:29 – Rom 1:20 – Col 2:9 – The MAN CHRIST – 1 Tim 2:5 – was a MAN… Who, as do ALL MEN:

(1) HAS a GOD and CONFESSED this from His own lips – Mark 15:34 – which FACT is also noted in the writings of His Apostles – Eph 1:3

(2) was TEMPTED – Matt 4:1 – GOD cannot be tempted – James 1:13

(3) DIED –Mark 15:37 – Luke 23:46 – Which NEVER shall occur in the experience of GOD who is EVER lasting… any entity which has INTERRUPTION of LIFE, is NOT “EVER–LASTING” – YHVH has NO BEGINNING of DAYS nor END of LIFE (at any point) –

that the Spirit is sent by the Father and is, essentially, God. and that the three are co-eternal, and One.

[size=150]Essentially[/size]? Another “theological” deflection… unfounded in Scripture…

Where is the Scriptural verification of this statement, Grace? NONE of this is stated in the WORD of God, …which is WHY you did not QUOTE it, …FROM IT.

YHVH …IS… Spirit, …and that SPIRIT is HOLY… not a separate “personage”. The “Father” of JESUS was the HOLY SPIRIT – Matt 1:20 – which IS, YHVH…

If the “Holy Spirit” is His “Father” (and that is verified by the Scripture I just noted)… then who is the …“Father”… and why is the “Father” called the FATHER?

Maybe it is your time to let go of this mythical belief. If one holds to beliefs which are NOT stated in the WORD, then it is not the WORD which is the FOUNDATION of the belief.

It is not a bad thing to have “believed” in something, and then let go of a given thing which you have believed, when REASON and LIGHT have availed a different perspective… however, it IS a bad thing to hold on to a belief which has no basis in the WORD of God, after you have been shown that it is NOT founded in the WORD.

If what you have just stated above is TRUE, then it shall be easy for you to DISPLAY the texts within the WORD of God, which FOUND this belief. which you note your statement —> "the Spirit is sent by the Father, and is [size=150]essentially[/size] God, and the three are co-eternal, and One"

Your resorting to the use of such words as “essentially”, or “substancially”, are evidence of the lack of present and WRITTEN, …FACTUAL notation in the Scriptures concerning these assertions.

the Nicene Creed of 325 says it well, imo. while not negating that there is One God, the Father Almighty, it also describes the coming forth of the Son from the Father, and describes the Son as being of one being or nature with the Father.

The “Nicene Creed” is NOT the WORD of God… and basing your heart’s belief in it, shall (one day, if not this day) avail the SAND upon which it stands.

I will agree that CHRIST is one in NATURE with God… but disagree that CHRIST is God, for several things within His life and WORDS, amply show this is an invalid observation.

The WORD notes there is ONE GOD… (not “3 in 1”)…

That God, …is YHVH… which CHRIST Himself confessed to be the ONLY GOD that exists –Matt 19:17 – Mark 10:18 – JESUS deflecting any “glory or credit” unto the ONE to which it is to be given… that being, YHVH God…

which is the only way the incarante Son could indicate Himself when Phillip asked Him to show himself and his fellow disciples the Father (John 14:6-9).

JESUS spoke the WORD from its SOURCE, which was within… for the FULLNESS of YHVH dwelt within Him…

He also plainly spoke as a MAN on MANY occasions… Calling Himself the “Son of MAN”, over and again…

There is no Scripture that notes that JESUS was “God incarnate”… The WORD is in all men… but is yet UNREVEALED in and to most. This is according to the workings of YHVH which works ALL THINGS according to the advisements of HIS OWN WILL – Eph 1:11

It is the WORD (which IS YHVH) that IS the Father, and is projected IN the Sons… beginning with CHRIST, and eventually in ALL…

When YOU give “YOUR WORD” in promise to someone Grace, is it not a proclamation of the verification of YOURSELF, Grace? Or is there a “separate someone” IN you that is providing the verification?

We being MADE in the IMAGE of God… shall BE as He (not “they”)…IS… which is ONE person.

You and I are not MULTIPLE in personage INTERNALLY, even though we as INDIVIDUAL and SINGULAR beings, are manifest in MANY different ways and capacities EXTERNALLY… I am a Father, Son, Grandfather, Friend, co-worker, Uncle, Nephew, Husband, Brother, neighbor, tax payer, musician, etc… but only ONE PERSON is ALL of these!

[size=150]In conclusion[/size]…

Because of all that I have just stated, …you might ask me, …willieH >>> is CHRIST your lord? To which I shall heartily answer, …YES…

Then you might ask, “WHY and HOW is that”? To which I shall answer, …Because He (via the WILL of GOD), is the WORTHY LAMB …OF GOD… (which is not God, of Himself) – Rev 5:12 – and He is also, the CAPTAIN of our Salvation – Heb 2:10 – His position as Lord is given Him by GOD… and He is therefore my “LORD”… BEFORE me, and over me… due any and all HONOR that I might in the strength given me of GOD to give unto Him for the MAJESTY of His sacrifice for me.

Not because …HE… is “GOD”, …but because YHVH GOD has given Him to be LORD of and over ALL except YHVH GOD – 1 Cor 15:27-28

Furthermore, CHRIST shall EVER be subject to YHVH, …not the reverse, …nor THE EQUAL of YHVH, …Rather the PRIMARY OFFSPRING of the Parent of ALL, …known as YHVH God.

Peace be unto you Grace…

…willieH

[Grace]

i basically agree with you, W. except that i’d argue that Christ the Word having the same nature as the Father makes Him, essentially, God.

Scripture also tells us that the fullness of God dwelt in Christ, bodily. that Christ the Word who is of the same nature as God and the same substance and therefor God, became fully God and fully Man through the incarnation.

not that He is the Father, but that He can be and is Son, Messiah, and Servant, and still be fully and completely God in His nature and His being, even while being very clearly a Man. under and from the Father, yet worthy to be called God in function, and person.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Grace…

i basically agree with you, W. except that i’d argue that Christ the Word having the same nature as the Father makes Him, essentially, God.

The WORD emerges from GOD – Isaiah 55:11 – John 3:16 – It does NOT act of itself… CHRIST even confessed that “I do NOTHING of MYSELF”…

ALL the Sons of GOD are “gods”, because YHVH says they are – Psalm 82:6 – and CHRIST even quoted this Scripture as the Pharisees claimed Him to BLASPHEME by calling Himself the SON of GOD – John 10:34

God’s “offspring” are essentially images of Himself… just as we see that OUR children resemble us in stature, looks, and ability.

Scripture also tells us that the fullness of God dwelt in Christ, bodily. that Christ the Word who is of the same nature as God and the same substance and therefor God, became fully God and fully Man through the incarnation.

This it Theological assumption… Men become SONS of GOD, because they already ARE in the ETERNAL. All that exists has ALWAYS been… most just do not see this. Acts 17:28 notes that we IN HIM, we live, and move and have our being…

We being IN HIM (which never changes, and has ALWAYS BEEN), means that WE being part of HIM, have ALWAYS BEEN, a part of HIM YHVH] which has ALWAYS BEEN, and NEVER CHANGES (becomes other than HE IS).

Your words sister Grace… are expressions of YOU… they are NOT a separate entity apart from YOU. Also… they do not COMPOSE who you are in your entirety, except in the determination of yourself to use them to EXPRESS who and what that “entirety” IS.

not that He is the Father, but that He can be and is Son, Messiah, and Servant, and still be fully and completely God in His nature and His being, even while being very clearly a Man. under and from the Father, yet worthy to be called God in function, and person.

You desire to cling to theology… and that is your right. I have already stated more than enough proof that this theology is amiss (in just the OP alone, to which NO ONE has responded), but it is not my intention to change your mind… Either God shall use my words concerning you, or He shall not, that is HIS CALL and decision…

JESUS by CONFESSION (as I have already noted) from HIs own lips, that there is only ONE GOD (which was HIS GOD as well as ours), to which HE deferred ALL HONOR unto…

YHVH does NOT “have a GOD”… for HE ALONE, …IS GOD.

Peace…

…willieH

[james.goetz]

You desire to cling to theology… and that is your right. I have already stated more than enough proof that this theology is amiss (in just the OP alone, to which NO ONE has responded), but it is not my intention to change your mind… Either God shall use my words concerning you, or He shall not, that is HIS CALL and decision…

willieH,** please refrain from saying that “NO ONE has responded” to your OP.** That is false. Over a year ago, I spent a lot of time trying to understand all of the extraordinary complications in your beliefs explained in your posts. I needed to ask you various questions for me to comprehend your writing and beliefs. And I eventually compiled all of your questions from the OP and replies to me while I answered those questions.

Perhaps you don’t like my answers because they disagree with the theology of willieH, but please stop saying that NO ONE has responded. For the record, see below:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=165&st=0&sk=t&sd=a#p1084

Hi Willie,

All of the scriptures that you quote are consistent with the teaching of the Trinity. And for example, the Gospel of John teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each a person. For example, John 17:5 says that the Father and Son gloriously preexisted the world. And all conversation between the Father and Son imply that each are a person while Jesus talks to the Father per all four Gospels. And John 14:26, 15:26, 16:7 describes the Holy Spirit as another person.

Should we form universalist congregations?

Saturday, May 10, 2008 NO! To be honest the whole idea makes me shudder with horror. In the list of things that are essential for a good church, teaching universalism is WAY down on the list. Indeed, a church that formed itself to be a ‘universalist’ congregation makes me imagine that it would spend a lot of its time preaching about universalism and so on (forgive me if I am wrong). God spare us from that! I want to be part of a church that is trinitarian, Christ-centred, Spirit-filled, missio…

Hi WillieH,

I’ll address various points about the Trinity and sons of God in regards to your beliefs posted in this topic. Due to my time constraints, I’ll do it in two parts. Here is part one. I’ll return with part two. I don’t know the day or hour, but I’ll return. I guess that you’ll keep to your word and not respond until I answer the questions that you asked. I’ll work on compiling those questions.

Here are Bible verses that support the belief in the Trinity.

The Old Testament (OT) has many verses that teach that there only one God and God is alone (Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 44:6), which is an intricate part of trinitarian belief. All scriptures that teach that God is one or alone support the belief in the Trinity.

The OT teaches about the Father, your Creator (Deuteronomy 32:6).

The OT teaches about the Son who is the Messiah. For example, Messianic Prophecy in Zechariah 14 teaches that the Lord will stand on the Mountain of Olives. And Messianic Prophecy in Daniel 7:13-14 describes the Messiah with the Ancient of Days who is the Father.

The OT teaches about the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2, Psalm 51:11, Isaiah 63:10-11).

Matthew 4:10 teaches that we should worship the Lord your God alone; Matthew 14:33 and 28:9 teach that the apostles worshiped Jesus; Matthew 26:42 describes Jesus praying to the Father; and Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34 teach that Jesus has a God.

John 5:19 teaches that the Father never works without the Son.

No human has seen God except the only Son of God who himself is God. John 1:18 TNIV, “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only [Son], who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.”

The New Testament (NT) teaches that Christ created all rulers and authorities in heaven and earth (John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:15-20).

Isaiah 44:6 says that the Lord Almighty is the first and the last, and apart from the Lord Almighty there is no God.

Revelation 21:6 says that God is the Alpha (first) and the Omega (last), the Beginning and the End.

Revelation 22:12-13 says that Christ is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Matthew 1:18-20, 3:11, 12:32, and 28:19 teach about the Holy Spirit while implying that the Holy Spirit is a person.

Mark 1:8, 3:29, 12:36, and 13:11 teach about the Holy Spirit while implying that the Holy Spirit is a person.

Luke 3:21-22 shows the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together.

John 14:14, 26; 15:26; 16:7 teach that the Holy Spirit is a person.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 and 13:14 teach that the Lord is the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit.

The Son incarnated to die for the sins of humans (1 Corinthians 15:3) and to be an example of submitting to God and overcoming temptation (Matthew 4:10, Luke 4:8). And as I noted earlier, the Son has a God (Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34).

All of these Bible teachings fit together. As we see from the verses above, the Bible teaches the following: there is one Lord God; the Father is God; the Son who is the one and only is God; the Holy Spirit is God; the three persons of God are one God; the three persons of God have equal authority in regards to eternal origin; the three persons of God revealed themselves in a hierarchal order to help teach humans about authority and submission; all other persons are created by the partnership of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Concerning Job 38:4-7, the implication of this passage per the tone in 38:4 is that Job was not there when the Lord laid the foundations of the earth. The reference to all the sons of God shouting for joy when the Lord laid the foundations of the earth refers to the sons of God that existed at that time. And the fact the Lord had not yet laid down the foundations of the earth does not mean that time had not yet began. God existed before time (1 Corinthians 2:7, Titus 1:2). And John 1:18 teaches that the Son who is the one and only is God. The Bible clearly teaches that the Son of God who created all things is categorically different than all other sons of God who are created. And the Bible never teaches that other sons of God existed before time.

2 Corinthians 13:14 TNIV
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Should we form universalist congregations?

Saturday, May 10, 2008 NO! To be honest the whole idea makes me shudder with horror. In the list of things that are essential for a good church, teaching universalism is WAY down on the list. Indeed, a church that formed itself to be a ‘universalist’ congregation makes me imagine that it would spend a lot of its time preaching about universalism and so on (forgive me if I am wrong). God spare us from that! I want to be part of a church that is trinitarian, Christ-centred, Spirit-filled, missio…

Hi WillieH,

Here is Part Two. I believe I compiled all of your questions from the OP and replies to me. And I answered those questions.

Q1. “trinity”… is there such an entity?
A1. yes

Q2. Does the Bible teach that our GOD, is a “3 person” God?
A2. yes

Q3. Not to mention the continuing usages of I, ME, Mine, Myself, etc… when He speaks of HIMSELF… If there were TWO other “persons”, why are they left out of this?
A3. The scripture in question is not teaching about that part of the Trinity, which is covered in other verses in the Bible.

Q4. I mean these with TOTAL respect of YHVH in order to make a point, …but, if there are THREE, …Is it not it a disrespect for YHVH to name HIMSELF ONLY as GOD, leaving out the other “TWO”?
A4. no

Q5. And if indeed the trinity is truly so, is it not a tone of selfishness, for so many mentions of Scripture to note EXCLUSION of the other “TWO”?
A5. no

Q6. Name one verse that states YHVH “has a GOD”…
A6. Mark 15:34

Q7. Name one verse that states that anyone or anything EVER, “sent” or DIRECTED YHVH in any way…
A7. John 6:44, 7:29, 15:26, 16:7

Q8. Name one verse that states that YHVH does as does (copies) anyone or anything… or is counseled (advised) by anyone or anything… on the contrary - He does ONLY, as HIS WILL counsels – Eph 1:11
A8. John 5:19

Q9. Name one verse that names YHVH has experienced DEATH… On the contrary, …He is EVERLASTING, and is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE… Is 57:15 – He INHABITS eternity, which is without BEGINNING of DAYS or END of LIFE)
A9. 1 Peter 3:18-20

Q10. No one is arguing that the MAN CHRIST, is not a “person”… the argument is, …is that MAN, …GOD?
A10. that man is the Lord God

Q11. Lets take these one at a time, shall we?
A11. okay

Q12. When YOU do things to comfort another person, …is it another PERSON other than YOU, …Jim?
A12. sometimes yes and sometimes no

Q13. You in your observation (IMO) are missing the perception that CHRIST named Himself Son of MAN, and SON of GOD… Was He 2 different PERSONS Jim? A “split personality”?
A13. no

Q14. There are 5 titles given in Is 9:6… does that mean there are FIVE, Jim? Do these FIVE notations mean GOD is a QUINTITY?
A14. no

Q15. Before I state my reply… I would like to ask you… WHY do you AVOID my questions? If your 'trinity" is TRUTH, you should easily be able to REFUTE what I say… WHAT is keeping you from addressing the Scriptures that I noted in the OP in Isaiah Jim? WHERE is the “trinity” in them?
A15. I had a difficult time following the flow and organization of your biblical hermeneutics, defense, and questions while I have limited time and wanted to focus on the primary issues before I answered all of your questions. My previous reply to you explains how all types of Bible verses are consistent with belief in the Trinity.

Q16. CHRIST had DIETY COMPLETELY permeating Him… COMPLETELY by the ONLY GOD that IS GOD… YHVH… which presence and permeation MADE Him GOD… it was NOT DUE to Himself, or anything HE did… for He testified: I can, …OF MYSELF… do NOTHING… (John 5:30) …Believest thou this brother Jim?
A16. no

Q17. Most will not allow themselves to entertain this thought, because they “feel” is it BLASPHEMY… but I say if YHVH permeates (ALL in ALL) all of HIS SONS… then what part of them is NOT GOD?
A17. The Lord has always been omnipresently permeating all creation, but creation is creation and not God while Jesus strictly forbids worshiping anything but the Lord God.

[pneuma]

For myself I have no problem with Jesus being God as I believe He is God.

However, Jesus is NOT God the Father, never was , never will be.

Jesus always made a distinction between Himself and the Father and that distinction is good enough for me.

For those who take Jesus’ statement the Father and I are one to mean that Jesus is saying He is God the Father is not logical for Jesus also says the WE are to be one with the Father as He himself is one with the Father. Are we then to assume we are also God the Father? Hardly

There is only ONE God the Father, Jesus is not HIM and neither are we.

Yes Jesus is God and was made flesh, but to take those scriptures to mean John was speaking of the Father being made flesh is to undo the sacrifice the Father made in sending His SON Jesus for us.

The Jews in the times just after the time of Christ also stumbled in this same area believing that the Messiah was God the Father using this scripture to prove that God/Father will not give His glory to another.

Isaiah 42:8
8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

But that is NOT what that scripture is saying, read it in context.

Isaiah 42:5-13
5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. 9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. 10 Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof. 11 Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. 12 Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands.
13 The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.

The Father is NOT saying He will keep His glory unto Himself, the Father IS saying that He will only give His glory unto Christ and NO OTHER. For is it not Christ who is the light of the Gentiles?, is it Not Christ who delivers out of the prison houses? is it not Christ who opens the eyes of the blind?

Jesus is God, He is just NOT God the Father.

Numbers 21:8-9
8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

This serpent of brass point us to Christ

John 3:12-14
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Jesus is God, but Jesus is NOT God the Father they are two different persons, the trinity doctrine is in error.

Those who worship Jesus as God the Father/trinity doctrine error after the same fashion as the children of Israel once did, making an idol out of Christ.

2 Kings 18:3-4
3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did. 4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

John 1:1-2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

If you pay close attention to the wording here you will see that not only is Jesus Christ God, but you will see the Father God. Two very distinct persons.

Let me paraphrase this a bit so that you can see what I am seeing.

In the beginning was the Word (Jesus Christ), and the Word (Jesus Christ) was with God (the Father), and the Word was God (Jesus Christ). 2 The same was in the beginning with God (the Father)

So what we have is

In the beginning was Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ was with the Father, and Jesus Christ was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with the Father.

These scriptures are NOT speaking of God the Father being manifested in the flesh and dwelling among us, they are talking about God the Son being manifested in the flesh and dwelling among us.

This is brought out in verse 14

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Is it really such a strange thing that the Son of God should also be a God himself?

And God said, Let US make man in our image, after OUR likeness

Another scripture used to support the trinity is where Thomas says my Lord and my God.

Thomas was not calling Jesus Lord and God, but rather when He looked at Jesus Thomas saw in Jesus both his Lord and his God.

It is the same thing when people look at us, they are not suppose to see just us, but are suppose to see CHRIST in US.