Ultra universalism


#192

Let me get back to something Chad mentioned - about facts.

Well, I go to the health club - Monday through Friday. And I see TVs in the locker room - tuned on to CNN, CSNBC and Fox News. And I see the same stories and facts presented. But there is a different spin - from each TV station. Either the Democrats, were the superheros. And the Republicans, are NOW the supervillains Or Vice versa.

Or take zombies. It’s a fact, that there are people - who allegedly have, the gift of prophesy. My Protestant mom - now deceased - was born with it. And I can show you folks (i.e. youtu.be/IQKp41kPKiM and youtu.be/UqHvVwyYc84), who allegedly have - the gift of prophesy. And they see zombies in the tribulation.

And look at this interesting Patheos article. It shows well educated theologians - who have a different take on zombies - after visiting Haiti.:

Christianity and Zombies

Traditions can bring power and healing.

Well, I was at a healing mass - with father A. A woman went to a Catholic site…where Mary supposedly appeared. And she had inoperable brain cancer. And she was healed…and ended up, with the gift of healing. I saw this healed woman. I felt her touch. And the Catholic Church and the Catholic doctors - conducted a thorough investigation.
Or take the Native Americans. I hung around the Two Feathers Medicine Clan for years. I believe that God spoke to them in visions - in the past. Just as he did - to the Israelite’s. But I have seen many healings - in their sacred ceremonies. Which have been passed down - via tradition. See Red Road Spirituality
Or take the legacy, of saints and holy people. This is tradition. And it’s part of the RC and EO churches. A saint is close to God - even after death. And this closeness, means they can intervene via prayer - on our behalf. And this tradition is also true, in that from the East, Islam (Sufism) and the Native Americans. In fact, I subscribe to a newsletter - regarding an Eastern and Sufi saint in India. Who has been dead, for over 100 years. And there are several people (just about each day - mind you), from around the world - reporting miracles.

Yes, so we have “facts”. And facts can be spun and viewed - in different ways. But we also have traditions, that “allegedly” brings power and healing.

Scripture? What came first - the chicken or the egg (i.e. tradition or scripture)? :laughing:

Let’s look at this article - for example:

God Man and the Universe Week Two: Tradition and the Development of Doctrine


#193

Well you can keep your questionable “facts” IMO. Mark Driscoll’s article had this to say…

IMO, “Biblical” is a stretch straight off… but this quote above if held to any consistency means Jesus himself, by Driscoll’s measure, was likewise a zombie too… **give me a break! ** :open_mouth:


#194

I just try to present the “facts”, Davo. I leave it up to members here, to put their own spin on them. :laughing:

Obviously, the author - and the 2 seminary graduates and theologians he quoted - have different opinions - on zombies. :smiley:

And Mark didn’t spend as much time in Haitian - as the 2 quoted theologians. Or he might have a different picture - or spin - on zombies. :wink:

And since I’m also, a living proponent…of the Russian Orthodox, Holy Fools tradition…It’s hard to tell sometimes, where I am coming from. :laughing:

But if I say I PERSONALLY observed, experienced or witnessed something…then this is TRUTH - from my perspective. :smiley:

For example. I was once talking to a sun dancer (a powerful Native American ceremony). And he told, me, that his body was once inhabited - by a drug dealer - before his death. The drug dealer died and a new spirit entered his body. Well, the whole Native American spirituality, is filled with spirits. And this person appeared to me - to be sane. Of course, I experienced this conversation. I have heard stories about such events. And he could be spinning a story. But “technically”, is is NOW a zombie. Although one as sound in mind, as you or me.

Perhaps this video can illustrate different perspectives?


#195

That’s all well and good Randy… but by your own measure, does Jesus logically fit your criteria for zombie, YES or NO — what say you?


#196

No, Dave. Jesus was not a zombie. Whatever the mainstream and conservative RC, EO and Protestant churches (or the historical creeds) state - that’s what I side with - about Christ.

But since this article by Mark, was written near Halloween. Perhaps his statement was a “tongue in cheek” one :question:

Especially since the author Mark - is also a pastor (i.e. see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongue-in-cheek or urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tongue%20in%20cheek)?


#197

After further consideration and study I hold to full preterism. The new heavens and earth is the enlightened conscious of the believer in Christ. The body is the temple. Enlightenment happens when we come into union with Christ. A Falling in love with love. While the lake of fire and judgment are over with the book of revelation describes the battle between the false ego self (carnal self) and the true angel self or the self united to Christ. God operates across time and uses the spiritual truths in the Bible to apply them where we are at today. The initial judgment Day is different for each individual. And can also be seen as something that happens daily. I wrote about mine here:

The Holy Grail

The scales of justice balance in September
As Michael crushes Satan’s head in death
Ego is cast out, the new self is in union with Christ
Flames of torment destroy the self of the old
I stand on this Holy Mountain of God crucified
Baptized into water, death, and fire, I’m made new
The cup of the Holy Grail infuses precious stones within
As I become drunk on the Beautiful cup of blood
Victory reigns at the core in the Holy land of Eden
In celebration of the marriage with the Lamb
I have fallen madly in love with love

The scales of justice in the painting above are my birthday sign “Libra”. Satan is the ego being cast out.


#198

1 Tim.4:8

Berean Literal Bible
For bodily exercise is of a little profit, but godliness is profitable for everything, holding the promise of the present life and of the one coming.

New American Standard Bible
for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.

King James Bible
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

If the wicked will suffer no after death negative consequences & get the same blessedness as the righteous, then “godliness” in this life would not be"profitable" for the “life” that is coming after the “present life”. Instead, 1 Tim.4:8 would be false since godliness in this life would be irrelevant & unprofitable as regards the next life. It would only be relevant to this life.

What is the “promise” (1 Tim.4:8) regarding the life to come after death? Eonian life (2 Tim.1:1; Titus 1:2, Heb.9:15, 1 Jn.2:25, Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30, etc). Which the wicked forfeit (Jn.3:36; Rom.2:1-16, etc).


#199

That verse is NOT saying what your faulty logic is implying…

The potential for loss could indeed be known in terms of the loss of rewards ACCORDING TO one’s works good or bad — thus there is nothing “false” as you postulate… you simply have not understood Paul, nor Jesus for that matter, consider… Mt 16:27; 25:45; 1Cor 3:13-15.

The… “promise of the life that now is and of that which is about to be coming” didn’t need death to be in play for one to experience its promised blessedness. Such was/is the nature of “eternal life” i.e., the relevance of relationship based on knowledge, as per Jesus’ particular definition of “eonian life”…

Thus the disbelieving disobedient failed to grasp or see (<οὐκ ὄψεται> ouk oyetai) this blessedness, i.e., they failed to attain to the full knowledge of God in life… aka “eternal life”.


#200

Davo:

Can you elaborate on this? What are these rewards?


#201

I don’t know what Dave would say, Qaz. Myself, I would think that the rewards of having done good would BE the state of having done good. What we do in our lives (or afterlives too, I suppose) affects who we are and who we become. The reward is in the effect on one’s own being. That’s my opinion, fwiw. To be taken with all the salt you need.


#202

I think you meant davo, not me.
I am either the smart one or the handsome one, or both. :laughing: :laughing:


#203

So you now believe the second coming of Christ took place in A.D. 70?


#204

Yep you gottem both :laughing:


#205

Other than the book of ‘Revelation’ the NT is less clear as to exactly what said rewards actually look like OR how such were to transpire… we DO know however that according to Jesus ‘physical death’ was NOT a prerequisite to receiving such. Jesus had this to say…

A credibile consistency demands this above be understood in its most logical and common sense, i.e., Jesus was speaking directly OF and TO his disciples… as per the context of verse 24. Thus some would survive through ‘the Day’ of the parousia — or as Paul said… “we shall not all sleep” and “we who are alive, remaining to the end” etc. Now directly before this Jesus also says to his disciples…

Anywhere in the NT where rewards are mentioned they ALL have to do with works — rewards were NOT a salvational issue BUT a works rendered issue, either good or bad… bad meant the loss thereof.

There is one place however in the NT where the sense of rewards has some very special indicators of meaning…

The pantelist position is that these blessings above were specific to and part of the special privileges of the firstfruits saints (many of whom were martyred) and follow the flavour of Jesus’ words to his apostles here…

Beyond this I’m not sure other than speculation as to what awaits the rest of humanity in terms of possible rewards once we step through death’s veil — I have a hunch for us that some of this might be understood in terms of the blessedness we find in THIS LIFE in knowing God.


#206

My argument, based on 1 Tim.4:8, was that godly & ungodly living in this life does not get the “same blessedness” in the life that is coming.
Your remark (A) appears to agree that all do not get the “same blessedness” but rather differing rewards. Yet (B) you also speak of “faulty logic” while failing to explain why that is the case. So which is it, (A) or (B)?

Also BTW the near future doesn’t look bright for the ungodly…

By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. (2 Pet.3:7)


#207

The life that “now is” is the mortal human life before death. So the “life…which is to come” is after death:

1Tim 4:8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come.

After a believer’s mortal body dies, he has an eonian glory & body in the heavens:

2 Cor.4:17 For the momentary lightness of our affliction is producing for us a transcendently transcendent eonian burden of glory,
18 at our not noting what is being observed, but what is not being observed, for what is being observed is temporary, yet what is not being observed is eonian." 2 Cor.5:1 For we are aware that, if our terrestrial tabernacle house should be demolished, we have a building of God, a house not made by hands, eonian, in the heavens." 2 For in this also we are groaning, longing to be dressed in our habitation which is out of heaven

So eonian life isn’t limited to this mortal life only, but is also for those who have died “in Christ”, e.g. the martyrs Stephen & James in the book of Acts. Believers will obtain “life eonian” in the “coming eon”:

29 Now He said to them, "Verily, I am saying to you that there is no one who leaves house, or wife, or brothers, or parents, or children on account of the kingdom of God, 30 who may not by all means be getting back manyfold in this era, and in the coming eon, life eonian. (Lk.18:29-30)

29 Jesus averred to him, "Verily, I am saying to you that there is no one who leaves a house, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or fields, on My account and on account of the evangel, 30 who should not be getting back a hundredfold now, in this era, houses and brothers and sisters and mother and father and children and fields, with persecutions, and in the coming eon, life eonian. (Mk.10:29-30)

Which eon occurs after Christ’s return when life eonian will be obtained:

46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian. (Mt.25:46)
41 Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers. (Mt.25:41)

Life eonian is also experienced after the resurrection of the body:

Dan.12:2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion."
3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further.

The above passage also indicates after death punishment.

Eonian life is also a hope and a promise:

1 Jn.2:25 this is the promise which He promises us: life eonian
Titus 1:2 In hope of eonian life
Titus 3:7 3: heirs according to the hope of eonian life.
Jude 1:20 Now you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith, praying in holy spirit,
21 keep yourselves in the love of God, anticipating the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ for life eonian.

The willfully disobedient do not have such a promise or hope & will forfeit life eonian:

Jn.3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him."

2 Thess1:4 so that we ourselves glory in you in the ecclesias of God, for your endurance and faith in all your persecutions and the afflictions with which you are bearing -" 5 a display of the just judging of God, to deem you worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering also, 6 if so be that it is just of God to repay affliction to those afflicting you, 7 and to you who are being afflicted, ease, with us, at the unveiling of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful messengers, 8 in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ" 9 who shall incur the justice of eonian destruction from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" 10 whenever He may be coming to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all who believe (seeing that our testimony to you was believed) in that day.

Rom.2:4 Or are you despising the riches of His kindness and forbearance and patience, being ignorant that the kindness of God is leading you to repentance? 5 Yet, in accord with your hardness and unrepentant heart you are hoarding for yourself indignation in the day of indignation and revelation of the just judgment of God, 6 Who will be paying each one in accord with his acts: 7 to those, indeed, who by endurance in good acts are seeking glory and honor and incorruption, life eonian

16 in the day when God will be judging the hidden things of humanity, according to my evangel, through Jesus Christ


#208

Again Origen… your word “appears” shows you NOT following what I actually said. You’ve ignored how I showed that according to Jesus’ words ‘death’ was NOT a prerequisite to receiving rewards… thus “all do not get the “same blessedness”” applies, BUT postmortem isn’t a necessary prerequisite. I’m on board with Tom Wright who views the NT’s “coming age” or “age to come” as the new covenant age NOT heaven after death.

I DID show it… you just ignored the texts given that show YOUR reading of 1Tim 4:8 assumes more than it actually says.

Well it certainly wasn’t “bright for the ungodly” at all… the fiery judgement and ordeals about to break forth on “the present heavens and earth” of the old covenant creation, and THAT’S the creation in view which is borne out in the Greek word <στοιχεῖα> stoicheia translated elements — none other than the elemental and rudimental teachings of Judaism, i.e., the old covenant. The SAME word <στοιχεῖα> is used to describe same here…

As can be seen by applying the principle of ‘consistency’… <στοιχεῖα> stoicheia translated elements means the basic principles or elements of old covenant Judaism… such were destroyed in the AD70 inferno aka “the lake of fire” aka “the second death— from which there was nor is any promised resurrection.


#209

Already addressed in my previous post.

Thayer says:

“στοιχεῖον, στοιχειου, τό (from στοῖχος a row, rank, series; hence, properly, that which belongs to any στοῖχος, that of which a στοῖχος is composed; hence), “any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise; an element, first principle”.”

“…2. the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe (ἐστι δέ στοιχεῖον, ἐξ οὗ πρώτου γίνεται τά γινόμενα καί εἰς ὁ ἔσχατον ἀναλύεται … τό πῦρ, τό ὕδωρ, ὁ ἀήρ, ἡ γῆ, (Diogenes Laërtius Zeno 137); so very often from Plato down, as in Tim., p. 48 b.; in the Scriptures: Wis. 7:17 Wis. 19:17; 2 Peter 3:10, 12.”


#210

Perhaps the issue is, you simply don’t believe the Scriptures, e.g. God’s destruction of Sodom, God’s flooding of the world, & many other passages, from Genesis through to the end of Revelation? God isn’t a Teddy Bear.


#211

If this were the only life, or everyone got the exact same blessedness after death, would you live a godly Christian life? If so, why?

If you are a godly Christian, here’s what you’ve been experiencing & have to look forward to in this life:

  1. Suffering persecution,
  2. suffering discipline, chastening & rebukes,
  3. suffering the resisting of temptation,
  4. suffering taking up your cross daily
  5. suffering self denial
  6. suffering the loss of the “pleasures of sin” (Heb.11:25) & quite possibly
  7. suffer martyrdom (e.g. by fire, crucifixion, tortures etc):

Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. (2 Tim.3:12)

Acts 14:22 “We must endure many hardships to enter the kingdom of God,” they said.

2 Corinthians 4:9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed.

Matthew 10:22-25 And you shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake:

John 15:20 Remember the word that I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you as well;

Heb.12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons: “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, or lose heart when He rebukes you. 6 For the Lord disciplines the one He loves, and He chastises everyone He receives as a son.” 7 Endure suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?

Revelation 3:19 Those I love, I rebuke and discipline. Therefore be earnest and repent.

Heb.11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

Heb.11: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

1 Corinthians 15:19 If our hope in Christ is for this life alone, we are to be pitied more than all men.

If you think the Christian life would be the one to live if this life were the only one, how does that differ from the prosperity gospel preaching?

activechristianity.org/11-reason … y-worth-it
allaboutfollowingjesus.org/ … it-faq.htm

“Some of you reading this article are likely to be 13-18 years old”:
fervr.net/teen-life/is-being-a-C … y-worth-it