Ultra universalism


#23

As a pantelist… I view “judgement” as pertinent to “rewards” and such pertinent to “works”. Judgement has NOTHING to do with one’s access to the presence of God postmortem, i.e., pantelism does not buy into the unbiblical doctrine of purgatory, regardless of whatever shade is being peddled.

In the synoptics Jesus ALWAYS tired judgement to works and their attendant rewards, or the lack thereof.

Let me be clear, I’m not making a case either way for the UU under discussion here, though I’d be leaning somewhat that direction. But your statement above is amazing! The ONLY motivation your Christian life has for not considering enjoying “pleasures of sin” is an apparent THREAT of postmortem purgatory… astounding to say the least! So… remove your threat and in your opinion, all bets are off — how shallow a faith!?

This also demonstrates the self-same sour grapes attitude reflected in Mt 20:10-15. This just makes your ‘crucified flesh’ talk appear like vacuous religious rhetoric.

To what “ton of Scripture” do you refer?


An Honest Question to Purgatorial Universalists
#24

Obviously i don’t subscribe to Pantelism. Neither would i necessarily equate the after death salvation of the lost, their correction & associated sufferings of torments with a “purgatory” which has not been defined.

In my comment i stated what was “arguable”. I didn’t list any personal “motivations” let alone restrict them to just one as you have, davey. What are your motivations? Do they include a godly fear of after death torments? Or a godly fear of consequences in this life? You didn’t rule out either.

Dan.12:2, Jn.5:28-29, Rev.20:10-15 & many others.


#25

I apologize if you found that offensive, qaz. Admittedly, ETs have argued much the same against UR in general or even annihilationism. A similar question could be asked of ETers.


#26

Well yeah you had me scratching my head, as they are the very arguments I’ve seen infernalists use against universalists… so I’m left wondering HOW you see the same working against what you see as UU?

Well this below fits right in with views expressed by others here in EU: Purgatory

This above pretty much falls right in line and IS in the ballpark of opinions expressed on this forum with regards to an apparent postmortem purification by fire, said to be God’s love, needed to qualify and purify one then for heaven… Catholics have merely given the doctrine a name.

Not quite the ton… and I’m not sure how you think they somehow stand against a pantelist reading? These were pertinent to Israel’s covenant renewal where SOME would indeed lose their lives in the end of the Mosaic world — BUT that is all it is — these texts don’t suggest any such purgatorial degree (as linked with the fiery purging arguments mooted in EU).


#27

Those arguments against universalism are invalid in light of its doctrine of “hell” as a deterrent against sinning in this life. The same cannot be said about UU which has no “hell”. As i said:

UU would also, arguably, make the process of salvation in this life pointless. Why bother. Why not instead go & enjoy the “pleasures of sin”? Then at death be instantly transferred to endless heaven. IOW eat your cake & have it too.

In my comment i stated what was “arguable”. I didn’t list any personal “motivations” let alone restrict them to just one as you have, davey. What are your motivations? Do they include a godly fear of after death torments? Or a godly fear of consequences in this life? You didn’t rule out either.

As for purgatory, how is that defined? Do Christians experience a purging by the fire of God’s love in this life? If so, then why can’t the same apply to those who spent their mortal lives in rebellion against Christ when they reach the afterlife? Except, due to their rebellion, it will be far worse than if they had surrendered to Him while alive. But there is nothing about the belief in afterlife correction with torments that necessarily implies any of the various definitions & descriptions of purgatory at your wikipedia link.


#28

I specifically ruled out the Pantelist view that all Scripture has already been fulfilled, including the resurrections, lake of fire torments, Christ’s return, all references to afterlife chastening, etc:

UU also seems to require ignoring a ton of Scripture. Well, unless you’re a Pantelist or Preterist, perhaps.


#29

They are one and the same argument… your supposed chastening of fire, or however you want to float it, mean nothing to the infernalist, i.e., in their view you may as well have no hell.

Question: how well did your doctrine of hell resonate within you as a deterrent the last time you sinned, and the time before that — did your doctrine save you?

Pantelism accepts “hell… BUT understands its proper coinage as “gehenna” aka “the lake of fire” which historically speaking was the AD70 fall of Jerusalem. Like the Cross… a very literal event that carried and reflected the greater spiritual reality and significance — one reason why it also went by the moniker “the second death” — from which there was NO resurrection, i.e., the old covenant world breathed its last.

My understanding is… consequences are pertinent to THIS LIFE to which to use your vernacular… “a ton of Scripture” refer; I’m sure you don’t need me to point them out. I have NO “fear of after death torments” for anyone. IF there be some degree of postmortem redress (which if I were God there would be) in the world to come relative to actions in the world left then the biblical text remains arguably silent, other than the potential for the loss of rewards; but even that is more specific to NT believers.

Well with regards to postmortem there is NOTHING you can point to in the plain reading of scripture that requires such… any notion thereof has to be read into the text, but that is interpretive eisegesis not textual exegesis.

But let’s run with your scenario…Do Christians experience a purging by the fire of God’s love in this life?” Well… to however it is you want to attribute HOW that actually works for believers, THEN to be consistent, just apply the same to those you designate as rebellious. So… how have YOU Origen experienced this “purging by the fire of God’s love in this life”? What does it look like? Was it torturous of was it chastening? The SAME must likewise IF you be consistent, play out accordingly postmortem.

Well that’s your unproven assertion… fine to have but an assertion nonetheless — that’s not a cogent argument. Pantelism accepts that NOT one of Christ’s prophecies have failed, ALL have been fulfilled… God is all in all.


#30

How the “infernalist” (ECTers) understand things is irrelevant. The facts aren’t changed by someone’s opinion:

UU would also, arguably, make the process of salvation in this life pointless. Why bother. Why not instead go & enjoy the “pleasures of sin”? Then at death be instantly transferred to endless heaven. IOW eat your cake & have it too.

In my comment i stated what was “arguable”. I didn’t list any personal “motivations” let alone restrict them to just one as you have, davey. What are your motivations? Do they include a godly fear of after death torments? Or a godly fear of consequences in this life? You didn’t rule out either.


#31

Actually, the Course in Miracles, has some non-Christian concepts in it. That contradicts traditional Christian theology. See equip.org/article/a-course-in-miracles/. While I hope and pray, that all are saved…I’m agnostic, as to how it would probably be accomplished. So I leave it up to folks here - to formulate theological positions… on how it will be - or has been - accomplished. Which leaves me free, to argue for the upcoming zombie apocalypse - during the tribulation. And that God probably created, a flat earth in Genesis. Maybe a song, perhaps :smiley:

And here’s something, for folks to reflect upon. I still can’t tie in, ultra-universalsim, Full Preterism and the Zombie apolalypse:

5 Scientific Reasons a Zombie Apocalypse Could Actually Happen

After all, it’s a strange, strange world we live in. :laughing:


#32

Earlier you said:

So to put several of your thoughts together:

1] You have no fear of after death torments for anyone, but
2] If you were God there would be postmortem redress, yet
3] You don’t lean in that direction but lean against it, although
4] The biblical text remains arguably silent on the matter

Does that about sum it up? Or is there more, while i crunch on my popcorn ;


#33

Well clearly you yourself are just expressing an opinion — does it count, as likewise your opinion expressed above might well be wrong too :question:

Given you are just lazily repeating yourself AND I have actually responded to and with pertinent questions… what are you afraid of, what stops you from attempting a genuine answer — are you afraid of committing yourself, or is this a case of… you just don’t know?


#34

You seem to be confounding the way or means of correction with the sufferings of correction which are related to duration & intensity. Clearly the latter varies from individual to individual in this life, as it will also in the life after death.

That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: (1 Pet.1:7)

God is now “in all” (1 Cor.15:28) & this universe is the new heavens & new earth where there is no death or crying (Rev.21:1-4)?


#35

The facts aren’t a mere opinion:

Those arguments against universalism are invalid in light of its doctrine of “hell” as a deterrent against sinning in this life. The same cannot be said about UU which has no “hell”.

What questions?


#36

…as it will also in the life after death.And the Scripture/s actually verifying this :question:

The death (2Cor 3:7, 11), sorrow and crying etc, are relics of the OC age i.e., the old creation… Christ brought in the new creation, i.e., the NC age aka “age to come” wherein righteousness dwells (2Pet 3:13).

1) So… how have YOU Origen experienced this… “purging by the fire of God’s love in this life”?
2) How well did your doctrine of hell resonate within you as a deterrent the last time you sinned, and the time before that — did your doctrine save you?


#37

I’m too lazy to look them all up now & about to crash too. So for the moment i’ll just give you chapter 7 verse 77 of Common Sense which says regarding the afterlife correction: The sufferings of teenagers will not be as harsh as that of Hitler or Satan.

Edit: One Scripture passage is Mt.11:20-24. See also Heb.10:29, Rom.2:5-6. Compare Lk.12:47-48; James 3:1.

So is crying & death over or still happening?

1) So… how have YOU Origen experienced this… “purging by the fire of God’s love in this life”?
2) How well did your doctrine of hell resonate within you as a deterrent the last time you sinned, and the time before that — did your doctrine save you?

  1. What relevance does this have to the topic?
  2. God only knows. Are you suggesting that the consequences of breaking laws are not a deterrent? What do children do when there is no “law of the cookie jar”?

#38

Origen:

I accept your apology, but I still want to elaborate. All universalists are disturbed at the thoughts of people suffering forever. My compassion compels me to go a step further, and be disturbed by the thought of people suffering for any duration postmortem. The idea of someone dying of cancer, or someone being murdered, or dying in a car accident, and then suffering more because they hadn’t reached 100% spiritual purity on Earth, is too unpleasant for me to believe. Compassion, not “flesh”.


#39

Chad, I have read and enjoyed Elizabeth Kubler Ross, but I don’t see her as conversant with evangelicalism or the N.T., and she doesn’t change my reading of it at all.

I don’t know him, but would rather not seek an evaluation of the case through emails.

Finding that the making of books on almost any belief, has no end, I am baffled that so many here lay forth numerous contentions for U.U., but apparently know of nothing in print setting forth the case. Why would no one find that desirable or publishable?


#40

I have to agree. When I used to attend the Episcopal church…before it became too liberal…one priest publicly said, he was a universalist. But he also said, he had no idea … how God would bring it about. If I were a convinced universalist… I would probably be agnostic… as to how , it would take place.


#41

Bob, Hosea Ballou might have been an UU. I don’t know which book(s) he argues for it though.


#42

Bob said:

Well, I’m not particularly evangelical in the classic sense and I feel the NT is fairly silent on the matter so her work doesn’t change my reading of it at all either. So Ross, who had studied the NDE’s and afterlife quite considerably, gives a fresh view of the subject that does bear the weight of science to some extent.

qaz wrote:

I would say this fits Ross’ description of what happens at death to a ‘t’ though if memory serves, I don’t think she uses the word ‘heaven’ but I could be mistaken.