The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Universalism + Free Will = One Very Strange Bird

man shares participation in the process from a “will” point of view.

Certainly.

However, what is in dispute with the ‘free will’ question is the effective agency behind the process. Some in this forum are saying that the effective agency is the ‘free will’ of man, whereas I am saying it is the sovereign choice of God. God is the one who open’s our eyes and brings us to faith. Here is a verse that makes the distinction, 1 Corinthians 4:7, “For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?” The Biblical answer to Paul’s question is that God himself makes the difference at every level, whether OT or NT believer or even the difference between a ‘good’ or bad unbeliever or the difference between Cornelius and his neighbors. Unless one confesses that it is God who has made the difference, then they are boasting in themselves rather than boasting in the Lord.

For most orthodox Arminians the expression ‘free will’ is the answer as to why they are saved and why most are eternally damned. They believe each individual’s ‘free will’ choice made the difference. This is an offense to grace. That is why ‘free will’ universalists seem like a strange bird to me because we have already concluded that God’s will has chosen to save all mankind independently of our will (though the Holy Spirit persuades each individual’s will to receive the good news.) Now I am certainly not saying that those holding to ‘free will’ are not Christians. True Christians, followers of Christ can be right and wrong on numerous points and still be Christian, for no one is perfect. However, the Christian holding to their ‘free will’ choice as the reason that they are Christian is either misinformed or rejecting the birds and the bees of spiritual life.

To state that, for most orthodox Arminians, freewill is the answer as to why they are saved and others damned is an oversimplification to say the least but if I go along with that view, I still cannot understand your comment “That is an offense to grace”. Firstly, let me say that I interpret your statement to mean “That is an offense to God in that it does a disservice of some sort to His grace”.
Why does it? To my mind it is the Calvinist’s perspective which does the disservice to God’s grace by limiting it to a select few (or for the deterministic universalist, by rationing God’s grace to a select few now and delaying His gift to a much later time for the others).
The Arminian position is that **God’s grace is more freely and expansively available to countless more people **but some of these people use their freewill to reject His grace. Doesn’t this latter view magnify the grace of God?
The only retort I can imagine is “Yes, but from the Calvinist’s perspective, God’s (very limited) grace is irresistible and therefore of greater substance”. I really think this argument doesn’t hold water, as I see it as a **most gracious **act that God should allow us to be ‘wooed’ by His Love into freely choosing to respond positively to His Love-gift of relationship with Him.
But I may have misunderstood your statement or may have missed another argument you have to persuade me that the Arminian’s view of God’s grace is a lesser one??

One of the commentators in Does Hopeful Universalism Sacrifice Divine Goodness? raised an interesting question. Let me pose it here:

I interpret your statement to mean “That is an offense to God in that it does a disservice of some sort to His grace”.

Claiming that ‘free will’ made a distinction between you and another rather than grace is not really a disservice to God’s grace, for ultimately nothing interrupts God’s purposes, even our unbelief. But instead it is a dishonoring of God and a prideful boast toward our fellowman.

Why does it?

A good question. First the Scriptures themselves specifically teach that attributing spiritual progress to anything but grace is contemptible in Romans 2:4 and boastful in 1 Corinthians 4:7. Second I also said earlier in this post that if we believe persuasion at the natural level of logic and argument is sufficient, then our evangelism will create victims rather than converts. We will neglect to pray asking God to provide the heart change that only he can provide. One might argue that we chose to pray because of our ‘free will’ choice to obey. However, Paul gives the glory for all his effort to God in verses like 1 Corinthians 15:10 and even our prayers as explained in Romans 8:26. Third, it is already admitted that there are no Scriptures that explicitly teach that man has a ‘free will’, but there are verses that teach that man must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit to be alive to God. Since this is the case the question begs, why not humbly accept the Scriptures? Why the resistance? Fourth, if I claim that my ‘free will’ made the difference in my spiritual progress I have a boast before my fellowman, but if I acknowledge that grace made the difference I am God’s servant to point others to the only hope for their healing, God himself. Further then God can answer for himself as to why he chooses to do this or that.

To my mind it is the Calvinist’s perspective which does the disservice to God’s grace by limiting it to a select few

On that we totally agree.

or for the deterministic universalist, by rationing God’s grace to a select few now and delaying His gift to a much later time for the others.

Yes, that is a concern. I have already said I do not like the negative connotation of the word ‘deterministic.’ The word ruins the artistry of what God is building and designing. Yet I also ask with you, why did God bring me to faith at age 18, others earlier, and even others later? Or why do many die in unbelief and unrepentance and suffer Hades when God’s grace could stem the tide? I do not like these facts either. However, it is what the Scriptures teach. So we could try to find an explanation that makes sense to human reason alone and helps us feel more comfortable, or we could give our lives to the Spirit’s purposes and allow God to make his appeal through us as Paul did, 2 Corinthians 5:20 “Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

The mistake many make who reject the sovereignty of God, is thinking of it as God sitting in heaven pulling switches and using words like ‘deterministic’ to describe his sovereign influence. This is a mistake that improperly characterizes the beautiful work of God’s grace. God’s sovereign grace is intimate and present and at work and when we obey his will, then it is certain that he is at work through us for the good.

If we are unable to respond to God’s love of our own free will out of the love that is within our own hearts, what kind of love is that?

Very true LLC.

A rose by any other name doth smell as sweet. Likewise, using any other word for ‘deterministic’ does not alter the concept. Yes, the concept you hold on to does have negative consequences and IMO diminishes the grace of God as I outlined in my last post.
I think there are too many caricatures and strawmen in this thread, possibly quite unintentionally. Nevertheless, with that, and a lack of real engagement with points clearly stated, I’ll bow out wishing all God’s blessings.

Eaglesway, you are not a ‘strange bird’. You are a storehouse of information and wisdom. I am grateful for your presence on this forum.

I don’t think it is the case that “we have already concluded that God’s will has chosen to save all mankind independently of our will.” If it were God’s will to do that, then why hasn’t He done it instantaneously? My answer is that if He saved people apart from their will, he would have many continuing rebels in His presence throughout eternity. God never forces the will of anyone. God Himself has free will, and He created man in His image—also with free will.

Rather than forcing His will onto people, God has chosen to save each individual when that person of his own free will repents and submits to the Messiah’s authority. Anyone who refuses to do that will not be saved until he submits. That is the reason it is taking so long, and will probably take many ages more before everyone has submitted. But God has patience. He will continue to work with everyone throughout the ages until all come to repentance and submission.

Actually Jeff, I view the thing, in brief- as I said before, man’s will is a bubble within the infinitely larger bubble of God’s will, His plan, His allness. He creates the parametrers of man’s will, as a stewardship that we call a life span, with which we are given great latitude by Him… however, it was never my intention and still is not- to engage in ANOTHER huge discussion or debate over this issue.

If you go back over the posts(not saying you should jus saying if… :slight_smile: ) you will note that I am only disagreeing with your oversimplified and inaccurate characterization of the free will universalist’s perspective. it is clear you do not understand that viewpoint… not saying you should accept it… just saying you should be willing to understand what a viewpoint is before you mischaracterize it. As I said, my views on the relationship between the will of God and the will of man are to complex to do in short form… so i gave you some brief hints, which it doesnt really appear you read, or “got” and this oversimplification will be the weakness of your book, for many, because not all will see it as you do… but it will read well with those who see things just like you do. I prefer to share universalism as transcending some of the more common polarizations of orthodox doctrines… but that is just my perspective on that.

Arminians believe man chooses hell. Calvinists believe God chooses men for hell. I am neither. I am a universalist. I believe God made a plan where all will eventually submit willingly to the Lordship of Jesus, embracing the love of God. He is the agency, but we are agents. :laughing:

Just as you dislike the word deterministic, as I said before, I dislike the term “free will”- it is not free from God, it is free within the field of God’s choosing, in the cosmos of time and space… and subject in its “freedom” to certain universal laws God set in place as the foundations of creation. Romans 8 tells us how God subjected the creation to futility with a forward view to the setting free of the whole creation into the freedom that we, as children of God have been born into, which is love- “the glorious freedom of the children of God”.

God has done all this, but His overiding purpose is to create “friends” and “sons” who commune with Him from a place of agreement because He Is Love. What a place to share from, the joy of fellowship, as mature children of God who have entered the autonomy of love.

This is why, in 1 Cor 15, it says all rule power and authority will be done away, because when God is all in all, all will be in love, and love does no ill, so there will be no need for rule- there will only be joy like a river of ten thousands of ten thousands praising God… His voice being like the rushing of many waters.

For freedom Christ has set you free. The one who the Son sets free will be free indeed. You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. Our mother is the new Jerusalem from above who is free. The wind blows where it will, and you hear the sound and you dont kno where it is coming from or where it is going…so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

The way of love produces freedom, “it is written in the volume of the book of me, 'I come to do Your will O God.”

This “Perfect law of liberty” is given by God and grows in us by grace as we walk with Him.

Really, I am not pitting anything against anything. Certainly not free will against God’s sovereignty. They are two sides of one coin. God’s sovereignty is setting us free, as His grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and walk in the Spirit.

Yes I would like to agree with all of you as much as possible. Most of the discussion, lengthy words aside, boils down to our understanding of the nature of the non-Christian and the Christian. Is the Holy Spirit the essential agent turning and moving us God-ward?

To fine-tune that question a bit more, could we put it this way:

  1. Is the HS the necessary and sufficient agent in moving us God-ward?
    OR
  2. Is man’s activity a necessary, but not sufficient agent in moving us God-ward?

Isn’t it a combination of both? But in what proportion? It’s like Yosemite Sam and the dragon. He needed to get the dragon (spiritual inspiration in the form of scripture, church attendance, moral works, etc.) into the room. And with the right combination of elements, the Holy Spirit (TNT) took him to the moon (i.e. God)

I reallylike these two questions together. If viewed as two aspects of one truth, you can see how the second question is an open conduit to the first.

Man’s activity is necessary, but it is not sufficient.

“No man comes to me except the father draw Him”…“If I am lifetd up from the earth I will draw all men unto me”.

In the reference to the serpent lifted up on a stick as Moses was instructed, the snake bite ws cured when the Israelites looked upon it. The snakebite itself, with its detremental effects motivated them to seek the offered release, and to look upon it as commanded… but only the sufficiency of God provided their healing, deliverance, salvation. If they didnt look they were not healed. If they looked they were healed, but not by their own sufficiency.

Of course God set up the entire construct. This is a perfect(imo) view of how God works.

“Behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone will open the door I will come in and sup with them.”

Man opens the door. God sets up the circumstances that lead to the awakening to the knock of Christ.

"He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’(Acts 17:25-27)

All creation is set up to draw us to Him.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not [n]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (Ro 1:20,21)

Chaos is the method(the earth was without form and void-tohu and bohu- and the Spirit hovered over the waters). God speaking is the resolution(Let there be light…faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.) Grace is the always at ready willingness of God to supply the deliverance offered in timely fashion to those willing to receive.

He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end. (Eccl 3:11)

God has seen the end from the beginning, having set it all up in His perfect wisdom and love, in such a way that not one will be lost, but that all will someday see and choose to yield, submit to and embrace His love- revealed by the snake on the stick and healed by the revelation…Christ crucified.

When man goes to far in trying to explain the ways of God he runs into the wall of his own limitations, for His ways are higher than our ways. We typically align on one side or the other of the paradox within the paradigm and say, “If this is true that is false”…but it is not always the case. Apparent contradictions within the whole cloth of the truth are there on purpose, to draw us further in seeking resolution(not to set up camps short of the whole counsel of God).

Proper exegesis demands that we come up higher seeking the seam between the two views(to the extent they are both represented in scripture)- which the two questions do nicely in my opinion.

As I see it, God’s word does not leave us sorting out opposing view points from scriptures that are saying different things in opposition, they all integrate at some point in a balanced understanding…but that understanding may always have some fuzzy edges, so we dont get too proud, put God in a box, because HE prefers to be seen through a glass darkly at times.

The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails—given by one shepherd. Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them.(Eccl 12:11,12)

33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

By observation of the world around us, we see that every relationship is cooperative in nature. God was the first to give us love. He created man and gave us life. He also created the earth and everything in it and gave it to us. These are gifts from God. In the beginning, God planted the tree of life (His word) in our hearts and minds. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is a man-made tree. It is up us which one we pick and eat of. We bring God’s word to life by living it, and in living it, the word brings our spirits to life. This is the best I can explain it. For me, it is just one of the mysteries of God. We know that the Holy Spirit works, but we just don’t know how. It can drive a person nuts just thinking about it. This is why God has made it very simple for us. He showed us the way and said, “Follow Me”.

John 8:31-36 might shed some light

To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?” Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

who are chosen 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

There are places in the scripture where paradoxes resolve in some measure.

When someone comes to the understanding of the salvation of all, for instance, a whole bunch of verses that used to seem contradictroy become the whole cloth of the plan of God regarding judgment and mercy.

Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.

The resolution is always further in than we have yet been(my opinion).

So I am perfectly comfortable saying “I don’t know” where the paradox resolves concerning free will and sovereign will, but …

The resolution of the paradox is the true paradigm, to whatever extent the mystery is revealed, usually on a windy path somewhere a good ways beyond the entrance to the discussion where the two opposing views, in their polarization, become the pillars holding up the “entryway”, neither of them alone presenting any legitimate destination or promise of a resolution of the conflict of ideas in each. Neither pole leading to “understanding” without the other.

I think 1 Peter 1:2 holds a wink at it tho.
I think there is a clue to it in 1 Peter 1:2

" chose according to the foreknowledge of God the Father"

The foreknowledge of God is an awesome thing. He could give someone(not saying he does) total freedom of will and still appear to control everything just because He forsaw everything and wrote down the road map to the destination and placed signs along the way. Allowing freedom does not have any reflection of omnipotence or omniciense, because God’s will is certainly free and He is not bound by the limitations of our logic, which is insufficient. All powerful and all-knowing He can aloow whatever He wishes, or not allow whatever He wishes… especially if the goal in all things is to produce a revelation and a relationship within the creation.

Like a father with a son who foresees the end of a path chosen and decides whether or not to intervene, whther or not the consequences are to severe to allow or whetehr it is a lesson ready to be learned, whether it is a test of stewardship and an opportunity to grow closer in love and relationship- or whether the son is about to hurt someone and in nedd of punidshment- etc.

In other words I think it is much more organic and personal than systematic theology conceives. You kno, every sparrow that falls, every hair on every hair, every prayer prayed, evry tear that falls, …in Him we live and move and have our being…

I think God has set the broad strokes like a frame work that will not change and is set as an administration suitable to the fulness of times. i think the actions of men are stretching a skin over that framework and filling the insides of it towards a grand and glorious building, or like a loom weaving a tapestry, both orderly and controled in the weaving yet free and as yet unrevealed in the image it will present.

To me that’s true in every life and true throughout all creation and time.

Time and cosmos the loom. (in the beginning the earth was without form and void and darkness covered the face of the deep), the word provides the image,(let there be ligh, waters above separated from waters below, lights in the heavens and dry land appears), our lives provide the material from which the final image will be completed, and altho God sees it before it is rendered, I believe He will have the same satisfaction in its completion that an artist has when a sculpture or a painting is finished.

He is not the loom, He is not the mechanics of it, He is the artist, the craftsman and His vision transcends that and is centered in being and relationships andthe creation and realization of the joy of a process where spontaneous acts work according to the counsel of His will to reveal His kind intention, like a waterfall(deep calls unto deep)

Who has been the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor, for From Him and thriough Him and To Him are all things to whom be the glory forever.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,** just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace**, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance,** having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, **to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—** if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard**, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

I maen, I know most folks think it must be “either, or” but I think its a lot deeper than that, and “both”, but like water flowing beyond the limits of logic and the mechanics one sees on the surface level of systematic theology.

I noticed that you’re use the WEB World English Bible translation for your quotes. That makes me happy because WEB is an excellent translation. If there was a nice print version available, I’d pick one up in a heartbeat. They have a paperback version on amazon but I’ve heard the quality of the print, margins and binding isn’t quite up to par.

Maybe the seller on Amazon has a contract with a monastery bookbinding and printing service, that still lives in the middle ages :question: :laughing:

lol that’s hilarious XD it looks like they used createspace to publish the paperback, which is amazon’s print on demand service. It would be nice if they had a nice hardback pew bible version…I’d also settle for a nice plexisoft faux leather (like my 20 dollar KJV Hendrickson) Maybe one day :smiley:

Here is another beautiful Scripture relevant to our discussion…

Isaiah 42:5-9

"Thus says God, the Lord,
who created the heavens and stretched them out,
who spread out the earth and what comes from it,
who gives breath to the people on it
and spirit to those who walk in it:
“I am the Lord; I have called you** in righteousness;
I will take you by the hand and keep you;
I will give you as a covenant for the people,
a light for the nations,
to open the eyes that are blind,
to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon,
from the prison those who sit in darkness.
I am the Lord; that is my name;
my glory I give to no other,
nor my praise to carved idols.
Behold, the former things have come to pass,
and new things I now declare;
before they spring forth
I tell you of them.”

For myself I am thankful that God is determined to save us. That is our great hope.**

The things that “spring forth” may be the things that God does. He can tell you what He is going to do before He does them.