The Evangelical Universalist Forum

UR's..When was our names written in the book of of life?

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#181

Please note which post specifically you’re referring to.

I underlined it for you. During the days of Awe, after the judgment, the “vast majority” of people who are written in the “Book of Intermediates” face the punishment of God and have an opportunity to repent and be written into the book of life.

But of course, these Jews are opperating under the Lack of Revelation of the Lamb! Also notice that neither the book of Intermediates (the vast majority of people) or the book of death are actually mentioned in scripture.

This author might have linked the Atonement with “DOOM”, but in Christianity we link the Atonement with Salvation, not doom. It is because of the Atonement that we are saved. Jesus took our place.

Calvinism and Arminianism both Limit the Atonement! Calvinism limits the Atonement in Scope and Arminianism limits the Atonement in Effect. But does scripture limit the Atonement in either scope or effect? I do not believe it does. Let’s look at a few scriptures that speak of the Universality of the Atonement, starting with what Jesus said concerning His own death.

John 12:30-32
30 Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.”

Note the universality of this statement. Apparently Jesus believed that through His death He would actually “draw all” unto Himself.” And Paul picks up this theme repeatedly stating such in his writings, as in the following.

Colossians 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Notice the repetition of the phrase “all things”. “All things” were created by Christ and for Christ; and “all things” are reconciled to Him through his blood shed on the cross. Reconcile, apokatallasso, means to “to reconcile completely, to reconcile back again, bring back a former state of harmony ”, “to remove all enmity and leave no impediment to unity and peace ”. “Make peace”, eirenopoieo, means “to make peace, establish harmony.”

Also note the mention of creation. What is it that we are brought back to? What former state of harmony are we brought back to? The Garden of Eden, Paradise, what humanity was created for in the beginning is what we are brought back to. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and through the Atonement Jesus brings back everything in heaven and on earth to Himself, brings us all back to our intended former state of harmony with God in Eden!

Ephesians 1:7-10
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

Note the universality of the Atonement in this passage which notes God’s stated intended purpose of bringing all things in heaven and on earth under the headship of Christ! Apolutrosis, “AV translates as “redemption” nine times, and “deliverance” once, 1 a releasing effected by payment of ransom, 1A redemption, deliverance, 1B liberation procured by the payment of a ransom.” It is because we are forgiven in heaven, redeemed by the blood of Christ in the eternal, that we can now embrace such on earth in the temporal through faith! It is because of the grace of God that we, all of humanity, stand forgiven; and God lavishes such on us by giving us understanding into this wonderful mystery that He purposed in Christ!

1 Timothy 2:1-6
1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

Note the universality of the Atonement in this passage. God not only wants all to be saved, He has “ransomed” all through the sacrifice of Christ. Ransom, antilutron, “what is given in exchange for another as the price of his redemption, ” a redemption-price, the means of liberation. Jesus exchanged himself for us, for all of humanity. Recognizing that Jesus gave himself as a ransom for all of humanity is the foundation from which we pray for everyone to experience this freedom in the present.

Also notice verse 4, what is translated as “wants” might be better translated as “will have”; thelo “to will, have in mind, intend, to be resolved or determined, to purpose. ” God purposes to have all humanity to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth, so He gave Jesus as a ransom for all humanity as the means of liberation for all humanity.

Romans 5:18
“Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.”

In this passage, Paul compares the effect of the sin of Adam with the effect of the sacrifice of Christ. Adam’s sin effected condemnation and death for all of humanity. Even Jesus suffered condemnation and death though He had no sin of His own. In like manner, the sacrifice of Christ effects justification and life for all humanity! In fact, the Atonement is greater than the sin of Adam because not only does the sacrifice of Christ atone for Adam’s sin, but it atones for all the sins of all humanity including Adam’s. The Atonement is far greater than the sin of Adam!

2 Corinthians 5:18-21
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

God does not count, recon, hold men’s sins against them! In fact, God in Jesus was “reconciling” the world, the kosmos, the universe, to Himself. It is on this basis that we participate in the ministry of Christ, that we as believers participate in this ministry of reconciliation, that we implore others to go ahead and be reconciled to God now! It is because we are all reconciled to God in heaven, in the eternal, that we seek the reconciliation of all on earth, in the temporal. And we pray, “Your kingdom come on earth as it IS in heaven!”

Scripture repeatedly affirms that the Atonement is NOT limited in either scope or effect; the Atonement is universal in scope and effect, redeeming and reconciling all to God, ultimately restoring all back into harmony with God as it was in Eden! This is truly Good News! Hallelujah!

For the Universalist the Atonement is like a life-guard rescuing everyone who is drowning. Some people respond to life-rings and other floatation devices thrown to them. On the other hand, though a person is unconscious, out of his mind with fear, the life-guard overpowers him and pulls him to safety – ultimately saving all who were drowning. Not one mother’s son or father’s daughter shall be lost – because God loves all of humanity and gave His only Son as a ransom, redeeming us all from the bondage of sin and Satan!

Of course, the Jews did not have this Revelation of the Atonement. If they had, they could have very well understood the Feast Days more fully. Instead of people being sealed in Doom being related to the Atonement, the Atonement is related to the salvation of all humanity.

Blessings,
Sherman

#182

Its a foreshadow of the final judgment in Rev 20:11-15, Ran. C’mon Ran read my corrective post again. :smiley:

#183

Sherman, The Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur and the days of Awe are a foreshadow of 1) rapture of the church, 2) the purpose of the tribulation period 3) the final judgment in Revelation 20:11-15. The post is “My Corrective post” under discussion negative.

#184

Well, one of us is forgetting it’s a metaphor. So far, the one forgetting it’s a metaphor is the one who takes it super-literally in order to call aspersion on RevJohn’s use of it (and thus on RevJohn by extraction). That would be… hmm, which of us? I’m pretty sure not me!

Ah, that shows which of us is taking it metaphorically and which one of us is conveniently forgetting it in order to try to make his point. Thanks! :mrgreen:

Not in how I regarded the phrase. Which, not incidentally, connects not only with a complexly realistic notion of full omniscience (in the Boethian style favored by C. S. Lewis among other theologians), but with my exegetic work (along with some other universalists) on the meaning of such things as the adjective “eonian” in the New Testament.

But yes, ignoring what I say on things does make your point look better. :wink:

No one here is worshiping the BoL, Ran, including Aaron37. But it is the height of ridiculousness to charge me of all people with that, considering that I have explicitly contrasted the BoL (including in its RevJohn useage) with metaphors (including in RevJohn) for Christ directly, specifically for showing the authoritative superiority of one metaphor set over another. (i.e. the log and river of life has authority over the book of life. Yes, even in RevJohn.)

You’re welcome to try pointing out where I made the argument that since the BoL appears outside RevJohn therefore RevJohn MUST be scripture. But you’ll need a lot more than good luck to find it; because that argument doesn’t exist. I never made it.

And incidentally, since you emphasized “once”: we showed you it appears twice elsewhere in the NT, and more than twice in the OT. (At least a dozen times, if I remember my count correctly, although nowhere near that many of those refs have been discussed yet.)

If you can’t bring yourself to talk accurately about the text (which, as has been demonstrated several times in this thread, you have a poor track record on anyway), or about the people who are talking about the text, I recommend you go to another thread somewhere and hang out there instead. All you’re doing here is mouthing off to no gain and distracting from any hope of serious conversation about it (pro or con).

Aaron37:

RevJohn is only the “last book of the Bible” because that’s where organizers have put it for a long time. It isn’t the last book in any other sense. (Compare with putting the Chronicles last in modern Jewish Bibles, compared with the Christian habit of putting Malachi last.)

And strictly speaking, a text’s mere self-attesting threat against rejection is no reasonable ground for accepting it.

Also, as has been shown several times (including in this thread–and, since you mention it, in your thread about “the days of Awe and the book of life”!), you yourself have no problem adding to things in RevJohn, or ignoring things explicitly stated in RevJohn, if that suits your purposes. So I recommend not throwing that stone in your glass house. :wink:

(Meanwhile, let’s stop the condemnation charges on all sides, please; whether Ran, A37, or Justin. This forum is NOT for doing that kind of thing.)

#185

Though I’m done with the kind of talk I was engaging in, for the record, where did I condemn anyone? I never thought there was no hope for Aaron. Or maybe you’re just talking about insulting?

sigh Maybe soon enough I’ll find a debate partner who wants to verbally spar.

Also, Ran seems to hold out a lot of hope for Aaron, to do him justice. Moreso than I do, at this particular point in time.

#186

I’m sure all us universalists ‘hold out hope’ for Aaron. :wink: That’s one of the downsides of the doctrine–we’re required to hold out hope and forgiveness to even our worst and most unrepentant enemies. :laughing: (Not that I consider Aaron an ‘enemy’–I’m just kidding around! :sunglasses: )

But, it may indeed be impossible for any of us to ‘teach’ Aaron about the truth of UR. It may not be desireable at this time–from God’s perspective–that he understand that truth. Knowledge is good, but if God meant for all of us to have all of it right away, then we would not now ‘see dimly, as in a glass.’ I believe we cannot have true knowledge unless and until it is given to us from God. Sometimes it comes from our persistant asking, seeking, and knocking; sometimes it comes unexpectedly, in a blinding revelation–as it did to Saul/Paul–though even then he did have to seek after the fact.

So far as I can tell, Aaron is not seeking if UR may be true–he’s in the Saul stage. He “knows” it “can’t” be true and he’s doing his best to eradicate it.

Sonia

#187

Yes, Saul/Paul is a perfect example. After his epiphany, he was sat down for years as he worked through the ramifications of what had been revealed. When he finally entered the fray as a Christian - he was prepared.

Moderns lack that sort of patience. So, it’s better to think in terms of enlightenment which is more constant, while still filtering and testing before going off half-cocked. (not saying I’m a poster-boy for patience) :mrgreen:

#188

Actually, since “condemned” is a biblical term I suppose it doesn’t mean “without hope,” unless you mean in the present term, as in Jesus asking the Pharisees the rhetorical question, “How will you escape going to hell!?” They are condemned to hell, but not to never escaping it.

#189

That’s at least as close to the kind of condemnation of false teachers that A37 more or less implies about us.

I can understand every side wanting to put that up, since it’s in the scriptures; I hint at condemnation myself on occasion when pointing out that the people first in line for zorching are those who refuse to have mercy or forgiveness on their enemies: a very prevalent theme in the Synoptic Gospels (and one connected to Jesus’ avowal of remedial punishment, by the way, although that’s a topic for another thread. :wink: ) I try to keep that at an absolute minimum though.

This forum was set up to provide a place for thinking about the information and the principles accurately and logically, on all sides of the question. Ethical denunciation of other sides in principle, and especially of forum members as representatives of sides, should be dialed down.

#190

For UR to be true every man that has ever lived must be found written in the book of life and we all know scripture does not record that anywhere. God has established a pattern in the OT feasts that foreshadow the rapture of the church, the purpose of the tribulation and the final judgment of every man’s destiny in Rev 20:11-15. Based on that alone, UR is impossible. :smiley:

#191

Very well, I’ll attempt to the best of my ability and memory to abide by that purpose, as I already am.

However, just to ease your mind on the matter, I wasn’t implicating Aaron necessarily although I was leaving some room for self-reflection on his part to answer the question for himself. Unless he does have “slaves” to beat that he keeps in closets somewhere, but I don’t think it’s appropriate for me to ask him about his personal life. :wink:

#192

Scripture doesn’t record everything. It didn’t predict that I’d have to run to the next bus stop this morning in time for the bus to loop back around, and it didn’t even tell me who I’d end up planning on marrying. There’s not even enough space to write everything (especially back then with limited papyrus). It doesn’t tell the end of the story because the story’s not over quite yet. Leave it some room to provide a specific aspect of God’s redemptive plan. Much of the rest of scripture besides Revelation does explicitly state that all mankind will be saved. What is this called, the fallacy of omission?

And as far as the BoL goes, it’s not useless if everyone’s names end up getting written into it, because in the meantime, they are not. You already have admitted that names get put in as history is written. This book is just a running record of who is currently privy to the life eternal.

#193

And even RevJohn explicitly goes that way in several places, most notably and relevantly in the scenes after the Book of Life judgment. :wink:

Well, he’s sure not bothering to deal with the positive counter-argument. From the same scriptures he referred to no less. :unamused:

Except that we’ve already shown from the scriptures even that your attempt to limit the lake of judgment snapshot to being the final tally is something you’re reading into the text, not out of it; in contravention to other testimony even by RevJohn itself in connection to that judgment.

Which is why you’re now having to appeal to a (highly debatable) typological reading of the Jewish Festal system, in order to try to ground the hopeless finality of the BoL’s contents at that point in RevJohn–over against what RevJohn itself has to say on the topic!! But as is already starting to be shown in those other threads, this attempt isn’t going to end well for you either. :wink:

The irony to all this, is that you also insist on continuing to level threats against other people for altering or leaving out testimony from RevJohn.

#194

(Mod note from Jason: when I was replying to A37’s post, I accidentally hit the “edit” button rather than the “quote” button. The composition screen that comes up is almost exactly similar either way, and so I didn’t notice I was actually replacing Aaron’s post. Worse, I can’t recover it completely. Fortunately, it amounted only to a quote-in-followup of a whole other post and then a short paragraph afterward. I think most, or maybe even all, of that short paragraph is still retained below, where I have quoted him on it. I will alert other mods and admins to be cautious about hitting the wrong button and inadvertently erasing someone’s post!)

Except of course Rev 20:11-15 says no such thing. :wink: Which (to reiterate) is why you originally tried to make a metaphysical argument for it from God’s omniscience (which wasn’t logically valid, and which conflicted directly with a direct statement from RevJohn that you yourself admitted was true); and now (in other threads) you’re trying to make an argument for it from a distant application of Jewish Feast typology (far from explicitly applied in the NT, by the way, including RevJohn).

I spent a lot of detail showing Rev 21:22-24 in context, including with Rev 19. At this point you can only rawly assert, on no basis, that I’m taking it out of context and/or “twisting” it around.

Including Jubilee and its connections to the Day of Atonement–oh, wait, you didn’t include that. Oops. :mrgreen: (Among several other problems with your attempt there; which I have commented on elsewhere. And could do so more extensively if I chose.)

Yeah, leaving the Jubilee factor of the equation does have that side effect (insofar as this is a valid line of approach at all–which I’m frankly dubious about, even in favor of universalism, as I’ve mentioned before. As usual, you haven’t done enough research, including on your opponent. :slight_smile: )

#195

I have to say, Aaron, you’re the least judgmental person I’ve encountered on these forums. :smiley: You are also extremely humble.

#196

That’s irony isn’t it… please say it is :wink:

#197

No, I’m being completely 100% sincere. I now see the light.

#198

Pass me those sunglasses… :smiley:

#199

Note: I think A37 just erased his post. Most of it can be reconstructed from comments on it, though.

#200

Oh, weird… somehow the forum engine copy-pasted my post over his post!

Either that, or I accidentally hit edit instead of quote… :open_mouth: crap… that’s probably what happened. The difference between them on the subsequent screen isn’t very great.

It must be my fault then. What’s worse, I don’t think there’s any way to undo it. Sorry, Aaron!

The only good news is that most of his post can be reconstructed from comments to it. Still, I hate that it happened. I’ll add a note to the beginning of it, explaining what happened.