Ran,
I think the validity of the canon would be a great topic to discuss in another thread, and I don’t think it’s really been discussed here yet. Perhaps you could start one? Aaron seems to have some strong opinions…
Sonia
I understand that quite well already, thanks. (I have in fact defended your right to reject the canonicity of RevJohn several times, despite accepting its canonicity myself.)
It’s the attitude and method of doing so I was, and am, warning you about.
It will interesting to see how he responds. It’s a favorite passage for Calvinists to ‘prove’ that a predetermined finite group are picked and the rest are created to burn - and all that since the foundation of the world. But Aaron has denied that he is a Calvinist.
Perhaps I will. But the canonization of the book and the demise of universalism go hand in hand. The early church was quite different before then. Frankly, if the book is valid - then UR can’t be true.
I’ve tried the validity route - but that’s like being locked inside the Tower of Babel with its twists and turns - because the sign above the door was ignored…‘Abandon all coherency ye who enter here.’
Of course, the solution for some sects is to never get out of the book. The Montanists for example.
Concerning the OP and one’s name being written in the book of life, my first thought is to remember that John’s Revelation is translated from at least 4 significantly different view points - Preterist, Historical, Metaphorical, and Futuristic. The Preterist view interprets the various elements of the book believing they speak of things that were fulfilled leading to and culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. The Historical view interprets Revelation affirming that it speaks of various significant events that have happened in history. The Metaphorical view interprets it as speaking of the ongoing battle between good and evil that rages within us, in our families, in our cultures, and in our nations. And of course, the Futuristic view interprets Revelation believing that it speaks of things yet to come, events that take place in relation to the future culmination of all things.
The reason that Revelation is open to such major differences in interpretation is because it is almost wholy written in symbolic, metaphorical language - beasts, horses, city, woman, lake of fire, lamb, books, etc. etc. etc. Does this mean that we cannot or should not seek to study and interpret Revelation? Of course not! However, to me it does mean that we should study it primarily as a means of inspiration and encouragement. The book is there for us to benefit us, to challenge us to live holy, not to bash each other over differences as to its meaning. So when it comes to Revelation, I seek to use it for inspiration and encouragement, not to establish doctrine but to illustrate doctrine.
Metaphorically speaking, those whose names are written in the book of life speaks of those who have the realization, the personal revelation of being known by God, those who have a personal relationship with God, those who have a vital connection with the source of Life - Jesus. To be blotted out of the book of life would thus mean to loose all sense of that vital connection to God.
In Revelation one of the most interesting verses that mentions the book of life is 20:11-13:
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Thought, does “dead” above refer to everyone who has ever died, or only to those who are “dead” because of not having their names written in the book of life, not having that vital connection with God! Either way, the dead are judged according to what they had actually done in their lives. Note that it doesn’t mention the atonement; judgement is related to how we actually live our lives, not to the salvation we have in Christ because of His sacrifice. In other words, we shall all be judged, I believe. We shall all give an account, face a reconing, when we come before the Lord.
And those not written in the book of life, those who do not have that vital connection with God, shall be cast into the Lake of fire. So what does the lake of fire speak of? Some read into this annihilation. Others read into it endless torment. But what would John’s audience have understood it to mean? I believe they would have understood it as Remedial Punishment. Why?
First note that the lake of fire is noted earlier to be in the presence of the Lamb and the presence of the angels (14.10). The Lamb speaks of the revelation of the sacrifice of Christ, and the angels speaks of the benevolent provision of God. These are revelations of the grace, goodness, and mercy of God! Next note that the word “tormented” is related to the process of the purification of metals. The purity of metals was tested against a touch-stone; they were tormented. And it is significant to note that Brimstone, theon, divine fire (theo = God), fire created by God not man as in volcanic lava which gives off the smell of burning sulfur. In fact, sulfur itself was called brimstone, divine fire. And the Greeks burnt sulfur as incense for both spiritual purification and physical healing. Ever heard of hot sulfur springs and the medicinal, healing qualities associated with them? People would come from all over to be cured of various ailments by the beneficial qualities of such hot sulfur springs. Anyhow, based on this information, I’ve come to believe that the lake of fire and brimstone speaks metaphorically of the purging, purifying , even healing presence of God, especially fueled by the revelation of the Atonement (Lamb) and the benevolent provision of God (angles).
One day, we shall all come to recon with just how much God loves us, how He provides for us every day without us even recongnizing it, with just how much God has forgiven us in the Atonement. This recognition brings us all to our knees and works in us tremendous repentance (weeping) and remorse (gnashing of teeth). (Pardon me for mixing related metaphors.) Such Remedial Judgment is not ony something we’ll experience in the future, but is something that we can and should embrace today! We, as believers, are blessed to be able to embrace judgment today and live in the freedom that it brings.
Sherman,
I loved your post. Right on!
Richard
I think a case for UR can be made from Revelation, so I disagree with you on that. And I believe Gregory MacDonald’s book does that–though I haven’t read that part. (had to take the book back to the library before I got that far, lol)
However, I would hesitate to build a doctrine based solely on that book. Visions and prophecy are not clear enough to allow it, imo. There are too many potential meanings and interpretations.
Sonia
Hey Sonia
I’m glad you decided to respond. You didn’t miss the place per se… it doesn’t say that in those exact words, but lets look what it does say in Rev 17: 8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Notice what it says about the people in this verse… their names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. So, therefore the opposite must be true. The names of all born again believers who will accept Jesus and overcome to the end have been written in the book of life before the world was created.
Lets look at another verse that says the same thing. Rev 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Notice the people also in this verse…their names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
There is no record in scripture that names can be added or need to be added based on what has been established in Rev 17:8 & 13:8…but names do get blotted out Rev 3:5; Rev 22:18-19. Unless you want to rewrite scripture and create a possiblity adding names that is not supported by scripture… That would be a no no according to Rev 22:18-19.
God bless,
Aaron
Sherman
you said : To be blotted out of the book of life would thus mean to loose all sense of that vital connection to God.
Aaron: Bingo… we have a winner…to be blotted out of the book of life has been established by scripture. Rev 3:5 ; Rev 22:19-19.
Could you please address the #1-4 questions and statements that pertain to my post. I don’t know why this is so difficult ( or maybe I do 
) You are not addressing what has been established in scripture how one enters heaven by having their names written in the lamb’s book of life before the world was created and the people whose names that were not written in the book of life before the world was created. How do these people enter heaven when their names are not written in the book of life before the world was created when there is no record in scripture names being added or need to be added based on what has been established in Rev 17:8 & 13:8…but names do get blotted out Rev 3:5; Rev 22:18-19 . Scripture has established if your name is not recorded in the lamb’s book of life you will not enter heaven. Rev 20:15.
Sherm’s answer was a good start, Aaron (though there’s a lot more to be said on that topic, too). In effect he’s pointing out that not being in the Lamb’s book of life isn’t necessarily a hopeless situation, challenging an unstated but necessary premise of your argument. i.e., he has no problem accepting most of the gist of your argument.
The short answer, in terms of exegetical theology, is that there are other contexts in RevJohn itself, related to that scene, to consider–including people being written, in effect, into the book of life. (The metaphor is slightly different, but trying to claim they’re different things isn’t going to work very well. In fact the RevJohn text I’m thinking of has direct connections to similar imagery used in both Romans and GosJohn.)
I’ll have more details on this later this weekend (I hope), unless Sherman or someone else (or several someone elses 
) beat me to it.
Jason
Sherman said : To be blotted out of the book of life would thus mean to loose all sense of that vital connection to God.
Aaron: Bingo… we have a winner…to be blotted out of the book of life has been established by scripture. Rev 3:5 ; Rev 22:18-19.
I believe that to be a hopeless situation. Scripture has esatblished it to be a hopeless situation…if your name is not recorded in the book of life your not getting in heaven, Jason. Rev 20:15. I believe Sherman understands this based on scripture. I believe that God means what He says and says what He means.
Btw, would it be possible for you to just address the statements and questions #1-4 at the end of my post without unneccessary rhetoric?
God bless,
Aaron
I recommend taking the time to try to head off my coming argument at the pass. I’ve given you enough hints to anticipate it correctly if you do the work.
(As to whether Sherman thinks being blotted out of the book is hopeless, I’ll let him answer that. I don’t believe it’s hopeless in the least; but then, I’ve read what Saint Paul had to say and to warn about on that topic, among other things. )
I’ll keep the rhetorical flavoring to a minimum. The dry and kind of boring technical details and logic, however, I can’t promise to keep to a minimum.
Jason
I can’t wait to see how your going to explain scripturally how being blotted out or not written in the book of life is not hopelessness…when scripture has already established that it is. 
Don’t make me wait too long, Jason. Lets see if you can pull this hudini act off without rewriting scripture…cant wait… 
Rather, notice that all of them will worship Him, and by your scheme are tormented forever. That does not make sense.
I thought that I did address your questions, though as Jason mentioned, I disagree with some of your assumptions and interpretations of scripture. I just didn’t point these out specifically, but will gladly do so point by point if you wish.
Actually, Jn 3:3 doesn’t say “to enter heaven”; it says that one must be born again “to see the Kingdom of Heaven”. In order for us to percieve the present reality of the kingdom of God we must be born of the Spirit. It’s not talking about us getting into heaven, but about us being able to percieve, understand the present reality of the rule and reign of God in our lives.
And Rev.20:15 also isn’t about getting into heaven, but about not facing the “lake of fire”. And as I pointed out in my first post, I do not believe that the metaphor of the lake of fire speaks of either annihilation or endless torture; rather, it speaks of remedial punishment, punishment with a positive purpose that brings about positive change in the one being punished.
I too believe in the Sovereignty of God, that God chooses who He will reveal Himself to in this life, who will hear the Gospel, and even who will be predisposed by DNA and circumstances to be receptive to the Gospel. Not only do many people live their whole lives never having an opportunity to know God in this life, there are some people who are virtually forced to know Christ - like Paul. Of course, I also trust that God is a righteous, just and merciful judge and that when we all face the judgment He’ll take all this into consideration. What worries me is I also believe that to whom much is given, much is required; and I’ve been given much. I was - born to Christian parents, loved by both and many others all my life, taught scripture from childhood, gifted in teaching and compassion, blessed with good health and having my physical needs always met, blessed with a good wife, wonderful children, even blessed to fellowship and work among others who love God passionately. “To whom much is given, much is required.” And it was the rich man who suffered in Gehenna though he too was a child of Abraham.
See, instead of applying these scriptures to others, seeking to find certainty of their damnation; I seek to apply scripture to my life so that I might embrace more of the forgiveness and love of God and communicat that love to others.
Yes, I seek to keep my relationship with God vibrant, alive and growing, so as not to give in to the disease of “hardness of heart” and have to face the judgment of a waisted life. Does this mean that I believe that ultimately Jesus will loose me and Satan will rule me forever? No, of course not. I believe that my and your ultimate salvation rests wholly in the blood of Christ though we might need to go through the fire of remedial judgment.
As noted before, it’s not talking about “getting into Heaven”. Being born of the Spirit speaks of getting heaven into us. And even the judgment and the Lake of Fire speaks of getting heaven into us, of bringing us to the recognition that we need God, that because of the Lamb we’ve been forgiven and salvation has been provided for us.
Of course, this is interpreting these passages from a present metaphorical view and futuristic view. In Revelation we see that Jesus triumphs, evil is overcome, and we can participate in that victory or be overcome. This is a present reality as well as our future hope.
Of course, if one interprets Revelation from a Preterist or Historical view, all of the metaphors we’ve discussed are interpreted differently.
Um, the “him” being spoken of in verse 8 is the Dragon, Ran, due to it giving authority to the wild beast. (Happened back in verse 4. The author uses the neutral pronoun “it” to talk about the Dragon and continues doing so down through verse 8, though most English Bibles translate it properly enough as “him” as in A37’s quote. The “him” is still the Dragon. He’s a bad guy. )
Sherman
you said: It’s not talking about us getting into heaven, but about us being able to percieve, understand the present reality of the rule and reign of God in our lives.
Aaron: Really? Please show me in scripture where it even remotley teaches this. Here is what scripture teaches about the book of life and getting into heaven:
Jesus referred indirectly to this book of life, stating that it is a good thing that your name would be written there.
Luke 10:20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."
In Revelation we are told that only those whose names are written in this book will enter the New Jerusalem and have a part in the new heavens and earth that God is making to restore paradise that was lost.
Revelation 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
You said : there are some people who are virtually forced to know Christ - like Paul.
Aaron: Are you being serious? This is a joke, right? So, Sherman, God forces Himself on people against their will to make them love and serve Him, huh? 
You know the drill…show me in scripture where it remotely teaches this.
Sherman, the way you interpret the bible conerns me. I do things the old fashioned way…I just believe God means what He says and says what He means… line upon line and precept upon precept…this will keep you out of trouble…
God bless,
Aaron
What Sherman is referring to is Paul’s conversion while he was persecuting the church - he wasn’t the least bit interested in being converted, but God forced Himself on Paul in the form of a blindness.
Aaron, I’ve tried again to respond to your argument and engage you on a Biblical basis, when you asked our view of Revelation’s Book of LIfe. But again I’m not seeing where I was able to succeed in having you seriously engage the several Scriptural questions I presented. You seemed to ignore the issues that I presented.
So, one question at a time. Based on Rev. 3:5, you observe that “God will blot out” certain names from the Book of LIfe. What do you think “blot out” means? Do you interpret it to declare that God will ‘remove’ certain people from the list of those that He always knew would be saved? Or do you assume another interpretation??
I totally disagree. God did not force himself on Paul, what God did was an act of mercy to knock Paul off his religious high-horse to reveal himself to him. Paul was not forced to believe in Jesus…Paul chose to believe in Jesus and do what He told him to do. 