There’s a few good websites for people interested in preterism that have a lot of info.
https://www.preteristarchive.com/2004_embury_fulfilled-grace/
and lots more. Good luck in your research.
You are kind of out of touch with the forum. No offense.
Wow 2004… what a golden oldie, and worth the read again just for the following conversation. That article/discussion was from the early days of stoking the ‘inclusive’ fire within prêterism; at the time being labelled with the pejorative “prêterist universalism”.
No idea why you would say that. The topic was preterism. I referenced the topic. How is that out of touch? Anyway sorry if my comments were unhelpful.
How is preterist universalism pejorative?
No… I meant that back in the day, i.e., 15+yrs ago when I was igniting inclusive fires in the prêterist camp which was very much staunchly anti-universalist — and so “universalist” was a dirty word.
ah now I see. Yes people get really angry at universalists for daring to suggest God could actually be love. I have family member who won’t talk to me because of it.
And I might just clarify for you… I’m a pantelist aka an inclusive prêterist and NOT a universalist prêterist. Although in the paddock next door the major difference is universalism believes in and agrees with the self-same “hell” as infernalism — the only difference being and amount of time either believes someone is believed to be therein, i.e., universalism says it is temporary whereas for infernalism says it is permanent, BUT they BOTH have the SAME post-mortem destiny in view.
Pantelism is (IMO) more prêteristically consistent, i.e., it views Jesus’ “hell” language aka “Gehenna” to be speaking of the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem aka ‘the lake of fire’.
Sounds like just a form of universalism. There are numerous brands of universalism. I don’t know where you came up with the definition you cited above. I am a preterist and I believe in universal restoration. But I don’t believe in the purgatorial hell that some universalists believe in. I believe in reincarnation and temporal woe as the punishment for the lost. I believe there could be post-mortem punishment for some of the lost but that would be retributive not redemptive punishment.
That may be what John had in view when he speaks of the second death and the rest of the dead who did not live again for a thousand years. Maybe.
I believe the gehenna language refers to the judgement day of AD 70 as well. Does that make me a pantelist too?
Pantelism is universalistic in that it acknowledges the full scope of God’s reconciliation as complete… not something still yet to be completed, but done. One can, for example, believe in the virgin birth without that meaning they are thereby a Catholic… etc.
Pantelism also rejects the purgatorial hell of universalism, but more importantly rejects outright the postmortem assumption of hell that all infernalists AND universalists agree 100% on… even you appear, unless you can clarify further, to hold to a postmortem hell in your words here…
Perhaps I’m reading you wrong, but your… “hell is not the end of the story for mankind. It is part of the journey” fits right in with the standard universalist and infernalist notion of postmortem torment… again, the only difference between the two positions being the length of stay and or the degree of said torment — BUT BOTH positions assume, as you appear to agree, as to a postmortem hell reality.
Pantelism knows no reincarnation.
I’m open to the idea of possible postmortem redress BUT THAT is purely from my own sense of justice and NOT based on any available text of scripture indicating such… so it’s not a position I’d die for — so atm a little agnostic on that.
Hmmm, you’ve kind of conflated two ideas? Pantelism understands “the lake of fire” to be the AD70 DoJ… thus “the second death” is one and the same thing — John’s second death description however highlights the covenantal death aspect of this, i.e., Israel’s first death was experienced in her Babylonian death, destruction and deportation aka EXILE; now in AD70 the same occurred at the hands of Rome.
The huge difference however between these two deaths was this… Israel was promised resurrection under the first, whereas there was NO RESURRECTION beyond or relative to the second aka “the lake of fire” — hence Pantelism’s strong rejection of this Universalist notion that the lake of fire somehow equates to God’s fiery love etc — no, the lake of fire—the second death marks the terminus of the old covenant world; thus answering to the disciples’ question of Jesus… “what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the world?” aka the end of the Mosaic age.
Well on that matter as a full prêterist you would be in agreement with the pantelist position.
Now you see.