The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What Christlike qualities does conservatism have? (corrected link)

I don’t mind being lumped with outsiders. As long as I’m free to defend my actual views :slight_smile:

Dave, when some (here mcarans) outlines what he reasons can happen under a particular policy, you often react with hurt that you are personally being attacked and unfairly so. My perception is that we are only honestly presenting rationales that we have heard some opponents present or make sense to us.

It’s fine if the shoe doesn’t fit. Just delineate how you differ with that argument.

I really don’t think programs like single payer, food stamps, paid time off, and unemployment insurance harm individuals the way not having them does. Some millionaire may not like having to pay an extra 7.5% tax so that his neighbor doesn’t have to spend thousands of dollars out of pocket on medical treatments, but can you honestly say such a tax would deprive him of the goods necessary to have a reasonable chance at a good quality of life the way medical bills a fifth of one’s income would for someone making $40,000 a year?

This is interesting how the conversation about the political left get the love your neighbor treatment from left leaning Christians.

The bernie crowd seems to exist as an upper middle class and wealthy (folks who can ‘afford to to be taxed more for the betterment’ ) making promises to the less fortunate but also the many who are holding the hand out. And thus the voting block is established

Once again, I agree with Dave and will say from my standpoint anyone who uses first century writings of Paul as a guide for 21st century global politics… Well :grimacing:

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This forum topic, has also been discussed - via other forums:

Link 2 has been posted already - I believe!

Let me list one benefit. Conservative Christians will probably, save and invest money wisely. So they can give folks struggling, jobs like maids!

I don’t hear Dave as saying that he rejects the Bible as irrelevant or that its’ values have no application to political issues. I think our differences are only about how to interpret and best apply their values.

I wasn’t saying that of you or any specific individual or group. I’m sure there are those who are not poor advocating higher taxes but only for those who earn more than them - such people also fall into the love of money trap. Basically any of us can fall into that trap when we’d rather not have our own resources be used to help.

I’ll let Dave comment on your post but from my ‘albeit limited understanding’ much has changed in the few years since the Biblical writings

Biggest bunch of malarkey ever… Then…

:thinking:

Another way to look at it is this - as taxes have decreased since WW2 in the US, has there been an equivalent increase in giving to charity, the poor etc. or has that extra money just been kept?

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But your base idea is unattainable. The giving AND REALIZING of charity has grown exponentially from the 50’s. Society is not only realizing that we need to invest in the lives of the poor, but all of our social programs are geared to helping those who are having problems. Our society as a whole wants to help the needy and struggling.

There is more need to engage for the downtrodden than in any time in our recent history. :thinking:

Yes, I agree Dave. People are very reactive to experiences in their life. We all know people who grow up in liberal homes who are abused, and rebel by being conservative, and vice versa. I believe their are Christlike qualities among both liberals and conservatives, liberalism and conservativism. Liberalism is attractive to Christians because of compassion for the disadvantaged, while conservativism (especially of the libertarian variety) appeals to Christian’s love for individual freedom, which we in the church call Christian liberty or individual soul liberty.

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The idea that the whole human race is, in a sense, one thing —one huge organism, like a tree—must not be confused with the idea that individual differences do not matter or that real people, Tom and Nobby and Kate, are somehow less important than collective things like classes, races, and so forth.

Indeed the two ideas are opposites. Things which are parts of a single organism may be very different from one another: things which are not, may be very alike. Six pennies are quite separate and very alike: my nose and my lungs are very different but they are only alive at all because they are parts of my body and share its common life. Christianity thinks of human individuals not as mere members of a group or items in a list, but as organs in a body—different from one another and each contributing what no other could. When you find yourself wanting to turn your children, or pupils, or even your neighbours, into people exactly like yourself, remember that God probably never meant them to be that. You and they are different organs, intended to do different things.

On the other hand, when you are tempted not to bother about someone else’s troubles because they are “no business of yours,” remember that though he is different from you he is part of the same organism as you. If you forget that he belongs to the same organism as yourself you will become an Individualist. If you forget that he is a different organ from you, if you want to suppress differences and make people all alike, you will become a Totalitarian. But a Christian must not be either a Totalitarian or an Individualist.

I feel a strong desire to tell you—and I expect you feel a strong desire to tell me—which of these two errors is the worse. That is the devil getting at us. He always sends errors into the world in pairs—pairs of opposites. And he always encourages us to spend a lot of time thinking which is the worse. You see why, of course? He relies on your extra dislike of the one error to draw you gradually into the opposite one. But do not let us be fooled. We have to keep our eyes on the goal and go straight through between both errors. We have no other concern than that with either of them.

-C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, Bk. 4, 6

Collectivism likes to play compassion, but at the heart places abstractions above people. I think it was Pope John Paul II who stated that a human is an end in itself, and never a means. I will admit that the body analogy does have some weaknesses, considering that certain organs can be removed if they are no longer convenient, and often times require removal if they are diseased. I do understand that this maybe the only option with what political systems do, but I also understand that God can and actually does heal the individual, rather than quarantine them to Hell. I have heard that defense of Hell.

Conservatives are ready for anything - gun wise. Even extreme threats…like the zombies of Z-Hell (1, 2, 3), vampires, werewolves, space aliens and monsters. They are just following Christ’s instructions, to carry a sword…and adapting it, for modern times!

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Okay we’ll be holding them off, while the rest of you do this: (the one song only, excerpted from what has been voted the greatest R&R concert of all time “Stop Making Sense” by the Talking Heads. I was the only voter in the poll :-))

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@daveb2.0 Byrne is a musical genius. Tried to get tickets to see him and within a day they were already sold out. :frowning:

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An article relevant to this thread:

“A so-called “gun free zone” does not make people safer, because the only person who’ll have a gun is the person who violates the policy…it’s really a ‘Victim Disarmament Zone’,” Alan Gottlieb, president of the Second Amendment Foundation, told Fox News.

@DaveB2.0 Effective gun control can only be implemented at the national level. Otherwise people will continue to go to the next city or state to buy guns.

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Australia implemented a ban a while ago and had much less problems to the extent that one of its citizens found it easier to go to NZ to shoot up a mosque. Now NZ has implemented gun controls in response.