The Old Testament is quite silent on ECT, but all of the sudden Daniel drops this bomb out of nowhere. What do you make of it?
I agree with it literally already happening. The prophecy was pertaining to Israel as a nation. The time of the end was not about the end of the entire world, but the end of the Old Covenant system, the end of their identity as God’s chosen nation, and the end of them as a nation. Daniel was told to “seal up” the book . . .this is one of the biggest arguements I have with people who try to pin Revelation to “this” generation or some generation yet to come. The beginning of Revelation, the first thing John sees is the first of seven SEALS being broken . . .there was only ONE found WORTHY to break them . . .not the lion of Juda, but a lamb as though it had been slain . . .extremely clear who this is . . .as well as WHEN this was taking place.
We know as John the Baptist proclaimed . . .first time the connection was ever made by the way . . that Jesus was the LAMB OF GOD . . .the reason we know the timing of when these things were to unfold was because John saw the state of the Lamb . . .as though it HAD JUST BEEN SLAIN . . .question . . .“when” was the Lamb slain? Yeah, 2,000 years ago. I’m sure when John saw that it made the hair stand up on the back of his neck because by then, when he received the revelation, it was at least 30 years after Jesus had ascended.
Okay, so . . .Jesus was the one who “opened” the seals . . .and it was at the time of his ministry and death . . .it was during his ministry that he did something quite unusual . . .he’d made a reference to Daniel’s prophecy.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.
15 **When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place **(let him that readeth understand),
16 then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:
Now, here’s the thing . . .Daniel was told to seal up the book because the time had not yet come. “Jesus” comes along, reaches back for the book and at the reference of the prophecy, he reopens the book. Why? Because the time HAD come through Jesus. He broke the seal that kept the prophecy from being fulfilled. But there’s more . . .as John goes into the craziness of all the things being revealed to him and all the symbolism, bottomless pits, smoke, locusts a woman with a basket, a harlot . .on and on . . .when it’s all said and done, at the very end of the story . . .John is instructed to do the very opposite that Daniel was told to do. John was specifically told to “leave the book open”. Why? Because what he had seen, had already begun. Which now we of course know because the moment Jesus pulled up Daniel’s prophecy, the first seal had been broken . . .
Revelation 22:10.
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.
And this is my frustration. Daniel was told to seal up a book because it wasn’t time yet. Around 600 years later, Jesus opens the book. With me so far? “if” Daniel was told to seal up a prophecy which was for only 600 years later, why then would John be told to “not” seal it up if the contents weren’t supposedly going to happen for another 2,000 years?
I’ve heard the argument “Well, in God’s eyes, 2,000 years was only 2 days . . .” But you’re ignoring the fact that if it’s only 2 days, then 600 years was about 13 hours in God-years and yet Daniel had to seal his up! Another arguement was “well, it “began” then but it’s still not finished yet . . .” People make up all kinds of stuff to keep their shaky doctrines entact. The problem with “that” argument is, what Daniel saw and what John saw are one and the same . . .and Daniel’s didn’t last thousands of years either.
So yeah, it’s pertaining to the removal of the Old covenant system to make way for the New Covenant, the Melchezedek lineage . . .which is us by the way. Oh, Revelation speaks of the Euphrates drying up and the moment it does, the kings of the east are to cross over it . . .did that literally happen? How’s the Christmas song go? We three kings of orient are, bearing gifts we’ve traveled afar . . .
Spiritually “east” speaks of resurrection . . the “rising” of the SON. Kings . . . you do realize God has proclaimed all of us to be KINGS and PRIESTS . … right? Our message is one of resurrection . . .let the dead arise!
Hi Chris,
This is a favorite passage of mine. I don’t see it as promoting ECT, but I do see it as a revelation of postmortem judgment and hopeful promise! It may be the first direct revelation of postmortem judgment, I don’t know.
Young’s Literal translates it:
The word translated “age-during” or “everlasting” is the Hebrew olam which no one can claim always has the meaning “without end” so to say it is proclaiming ECT would be presumptuous.
I find vs 3 particularly interesting. Here it is in a couple of translations:
KJV – And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
NASB – "*Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the *expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.
Some items of interest:
will shine brightly – “shine” is zahar: to admonish, warn, teach, shine, send out light, be light, be shining
The double meaning teach/warn/admonish and shine/send out light, suggests that these wise insightful ones will be teaching and giving light to others.
Then the parallelism: those leading the many to righteousness, or justifying the many will shine/teach/warn like the brightness of the stars to the age (olam) and continuing on (`ad).
So what I see in this passage is that after judgment there will be those who are wise who will “shine forth,” teaching and leading others to righteousness. Their teaching will be like the brightness of the daytime sky and the brilliance of the stars in the night, and will result in the justification of the multitude. Interesting also that the descendants of Abraham (the father of all who have faith) are likened to the stars.
Jesus makes reference to this passage in Matt 13:41ff:
The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. *"Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, *let him hear.
*
The Greek “shine” is also compatible with the idea of giving knowledge, as we can see here:
2Cr 4:6 For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
So, after the resurrection and judgment, the righteous will shine forth the Light of the knowledge of God, and lead the multitudes to righteousness! Amen!
Sonia
Brilliant stuff, Sonia. All too often, Christians (like the Jews before us) think to use God for personal gain, peace and comfort. Basically, we hope to escape punishment, find blessing, and go to Heaven when we die. Little do we imagine that God might have work for us to do! And icky work at that. How uncomfortable… I’m quite happy to have a guardian angel watching over me, but do I want to be a guardian angel watching over someone else? No thank you.
The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom **all causes of sin **and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, *let him hear.
Has it ever occurred to anyone that perhaps the law-breakers and the righteous that shine forth may be one an the same? This discussion has been dealing with Daniel, well, there’s another furnace mentioned in Daniel as well. And it was law breakers that were put in it . . .bound . . .it was the fire that burned away that which bound them and they walked out not just “alive” but news their experience spread across the land as lightning flashes from the east to the west . . .their faithfulness “shined forth as the sun”.
That’s what our furnace experiences is all about. That’s what Jesus’ commssion included . .setting the captives free. We’ve been taught that “while” God throws 99% of us in hell, the rest will shine forth as the sun . . .aren’t the righteous “already” supposed to be shining forth anyway?
Lastly . . .“he that hath an ear . . .” ALWAYS is connected to something that is to be seen with spiritual understanding, not literal applications. This phrase originated in Psalms and it’s directly connected to idols and idol worship . . .in this day and age . . . the idols in the church are the beliefs and doctrines that the denominations force everyone to bow down to (agree with) before they acknowledge you as a follower of their version of Christ.
Psalms 115
4Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men’s hands.
5They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
6They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
7They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.
8They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.
Psalms 135
15 The (A)idols of the nations are but silver and gold,
The work of man’s hands.
16 They have mouths, but they do not speak;
They have eyes, but they do not see;
17 They have ears, but they do not hear,
Nor is there any breath at all in their mouths.
18 Those who make them will be like them,
Yes, everyone who trusts in them.
Those who created them become deaf and blind like them. Those that honor them become like them as well. I believe it has everything to do with why the veil is still entact over the minds of those who can sit and hear/read Scriptures and still not hear or see what’s being said. But the passage in 135:17 especially speaks to me . .there’s no breath in their mouths. There’s no life in their words. There’s no spiritual inspiration coming out of them … .only law enforcement, alarms of doom and gloom, and condemnation to those who don’t abide by their warnings.
So when we see the references in the NT about “those who have ears to hear . . .” It’s saying to me that only those who’ve laid down their idol worship of religious structures can truly hear the life-seeds that are being released from that particular passage.
this post sent (good) shivers down my spine! very cool insight, and almost spooky…again in a good way.
It’s hard not to get all emotional when this stuff flows out . . . it’s a win/win!! Please don’t take this wrong, but I pray you’ll become impregnated by these life-seeds and as they grow in you, you will begin to walk differently, you’ll find movement taking place deep inside you . . .like a baby that kicks . . .you’ll morning sickness . . .natural food (religion) will sicken you. New names will begin coming to your heart and mind. Inward things in you will make way for this new life growing in you. There will become an outer glow . . .others will begin to take notice that you are with-child. You’ll begin eating (truths) for two rather than one. But because this is a spiritual experience, the pain of childbirth won’t exist. The pain didn’t come to Eve until “after” she was removed from the garden. This whole thing God is doing right now in you and us is, he’s bringing us “back” into the garden that Eve was removed from. Birthing will take place, understanding will manifest. New identities will be revealed and all the praise will be given to the Father of Life who sent this gift to us.
We’ll go from “singing” his song of grace and light to “being” his song of grace and light to a world that is also going to be experiencing the same wonderful birthing experience.
The knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth (our flesh) as the waters cover the sea . . .ever wonder how water “covers” something that it “is”?
That hadn’t occurred to me, but it does make sense in light of other things. I also noticed in the passage you quoted there, that those things were gathered out of his kingdom…which tells me they are already in his kingdom when he gathers them out for purification.
But maybe that’s a peculiarity of the language in the translation?
crazy interesting thought here…
and the fact that these law breakers are “gathered out of his Kingdom”.
Very consistent with UR’s view of God’s purposes of Judgement with Fire.
Adding this subject to my list of topics to study after i finish the other ones on my list. 
A key to this verse is “olam”, which is translated as “forever”, but I believe is meant to be a means of referencing that which is beyond, beyond site and understanding, over the horizo. The point of the passage is to encourage righteousness for some will rise to honor and others to shame. On judgment day, I trust that there will be plenty for us all to be “ashamed” of. And I suppose that though we are forgiven, some things will always carry some level of “shame” and we shall experience some level of anger and contempt from the Lord. I’ve experienced such in this life having tasted of eternal judgment.
1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
The following echos similarly to some of Sonia’s remarks above:
Daniel 12:2 in some literal translations:
Young’s Literal Translation
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life
age-during, and some to reproaches – to abhorrence age-during.
Rotherham
and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-
abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;
CLOT
2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
The Hebrew word for eonian (CLOT) above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations
in the OT & other writings.
The word OLAM occurs again in verse 3 of Daniel 12 in the words “eon[OLAM] and further”
(see CLOT above) showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2.
Thus contextual usage indicates OLAM in verse 2 is also of limited duration.
So Daniel 12:2 does not support ECT.
Therefore neither does the comparable or parallel passage in Matthew 25:46.
I have proposed another model of understanding in my book Optimism Out of Control. My understanding is that God’s victorious grace guarantees the salvation of all mankind, but that the pages of Scripture end with Satan and his angels sentenced to the Lake of Fire which is prepared only for them. This aligns nicely even with the proto-gospel in Genesis 3 which promises a deliverer for mankind, but a crushed head for Satan. So looking at Daniel 12:2-3 I see a parallel with Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15. I understand these to be the same event and at this final judgment God’s grace will prove finally victorious in the salvation of all mankind, even unbelieving man is extracted from their punishment in Hades. So just like Jesus promised, the gates of Hades will not prevail. However, Satan and his demons are the goats on Jesus’ left and the ones sent to olam shame. Consider that Matthew 25:41 explicitly says that these fires are prepared the Devil and his angels. So I understand that the Lake of Fire is not prepared for mankind, but only the fallen angels. 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 also agree with this model of understanding.
Here is a link to a one page article on my explanation of Daniel 12:2-3 if interested and you do not have time to consider the entire argument of my book, dgjc.org/optimism/daniel-12-1-4.
Of course some understand Daniel 12:2-3 and Matthew 25:31-46 to be judgments in the Heavenlies (or at least outside the visibility of the material world) at the change from the Old Covenant to the New. That understanding does not undermine the universal salvation of mankind in any way. And I certainly understand the covenantal change the same way, but still seems to me that Daniel 12:2-3 points to the future final judgment.
The key point is made at the beginning of this post, that there are no references that could even be remotely understood to be eternal damnation before Daniel 12:2-3. Those who oppose the understanding of the victory of God’s grace for all mankind must give an answer to that observation. How could the God of all grace eternally damn the first two thirds or whatever of unbelieving humanity without a clear Scriptural warning of the danger and the recipe to avoid it? It is unthinkable. How would a traditionalist answer that question? Though if we understand God’s grace we already know the answer. God is not in the least sweating or wringing his hands over mankind’s eternal destiny because he has already determined, guaranteed, and prophesied final victory. And if God does not condemn, then who remains to condemn? No one. Instead in Daniel 12 the Lord is revealing to Daniel that salvation is coming for mankind as well as judgment for Satan and his minions.
I do plan a revision of my book later this year to refine or reconsider my explanation of Daniel 12:2-3. A book by Bill Saxton titled Daniel’s Prophecies of Covenant Change has challenged my thinking and so I want to reconsider my position on some of these points. So I would also welcome any input from the forum as well.
Properly translated, there is no problem:
Dan 12:2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion."
There is the repulsion which is “eonian” or “pertaining to the eon” and there is the life which is eonian or “pertaining to the eon.”
There is the noun “aiwn” and the adjective “aiwnion” which is derived from its noun form.
Just as “American” is an adjective derived from its noun form “America” and tells us of that which is pertaining to America i.e. “Bush was the American president” tells us his presidency pertained to America, thus the life and the repulsion of Daniel 12:2 are pertaining to the eon.
Since the Bible says all the eons end, they cannot be eternal and therefore that which pertains to the eon cannot be eternal.
Believers get immortality and incorruption (1 Cor.15). When the eons end, believers keep on living. The eonian life ends but the immortal life continues. Get it?
Hi Jeff,
I believe it [the Daniel resurrection] is the resurrection affecting only the Israelites and those related i.e., Abraham, Isaac, Job.
I believe the righteous of that resurrection group will sit in the kingdom Christ will set up on the earth.
My understanding is that believers of the nations will meet Christ in the air prior to the Daniel event.
Thanks for letting me know. So then you probably think Daniel 12 is the same event as Matthew 25, and all pre-millennial and so not the same as the final judgment in Revelation 20?
I am not too sure the Daniel verse could be related to Matthew 25:31-46. It is my understanding that Matthew 25:31-46 is not related to a resurrection but rather already existent Nations which are to be being judged as to their treatment of Christ’s brethren when He returns per verse 31.
It seems to me that the people resurrected and enter the kingdom per the Daniel passage will be dealt when when Christ returns per this passage:
"Even as the darnel, then, are being culled and burned up with fire, thus shall it be in the conclusion of the eon. The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness, and they shall be casting them into a furnace of fire. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the just be shining out as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who has ears to hear, let him hear! (Mat 13:40-43).
It could be Christ first cleans the slate with Israel and then turns His attention to the nations. Judgment begins at the House of the Lord.
And then, it is possible Christ will deal with the nations as to how they treated His brethren when they went through their Jacob’s trouble A.K.A. the great tribulation.
I try not to be too hard nosed about these matters. It is possible I could be incorrect.
The bad nations of Mathew 25:46 I believe will enter into a figurative furnace of fire. And I believe the bad Israelites who get booted out of Christ’s millennial kingdom are cast into that same figurative furnace of fire the bad nations enter into. I don’t believe this furnace of fire is the lake of fire of Revelation since that (L.O.F.) is called “death” and occurs 1000 years after this judgment. I do believe that this judgment of Israelites and nations per the Matthew passages results in a chastening for the eon whereas the death of Revelation is for the eons of the eons which are the final two eons.
Just as Israel was in a furnace when held by Egypt 400 some years, (Egypt wasn’t a literal furnace nor literally made of iron), thus also it is my understanding these Israelites and nations during Christ’s millennial reign will enter a similar iron furnace of chastening. But it will be to reform them.
Anyway, this is my understanding. Others may not agree with me and that is okay too.
Sure, thanks for explaining further. Just trying to understand.