What if reality is a living nightmare?


What if in contradiction to human reason and intuition a Being can be loving and still predestine other beings to unending suffering?


Another book? ‘Does God Exist’ by Hans Kung. He answers questions that you haven’t even thought of. It is extremely thoughtful, loooooooong, I underlined half the book back in the day.
It seems that he has thought about and studied every single thing that there is to think about and study. Is he right 100% of the time? - well, nobody is.
But it will take some time to read!!


Is he a Calvinist, arminian, or universalist?


This is what I would say to that!

But really. I shared a piece today. From Roman Catholic priest - Richard Rohr at Contemplation: Perennial Wisdom. Where wisdom traditions throughout the centuries, are saying similar things. So MANY would get that wrong and echo what Elmer Fudd is saying.

We need to look, at the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic understanding - of heaven and hell.

If heaven and hell are equally, being in the presence of God. Well, there’s room for the suffering to become less. Or to end altogether. Or for the person, to cease to be. All are in the realm of possibility.


Actually qaz the point of the book is not any of the above - it is dealing with a far more basic and deeper set of questions than sectarian differences.
You could check it out on Amazon, or borrow at library I suppose.
It may not be for you, it’s just a suggestion.


Then this - being - would be contrary to God-breathed Sacred Scripture. A being which is the demonic caricature that Satan has deceived much of the religious world - his world - into believing for the past three thousand years. He mixes truth with poison.


The Scriptures require the illumination of the Holy Spirit to be correctly interpreted.

As Jesus told the Jewish leaders, “You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in THEM you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to ME to have life.” Jn. 5:39-40.

The new covenant is not about the letter, but the Spirit:

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 2 Cor. 3:6.

I would argue that on their face–that is, when read by “the letter”–the Scriptures provide contradictory viewpoints about the true nature of God. But when read by the Spirit, one recognizes that God is only about love and abundant life, even in the face of Bible verses that literally indicate otherwise.

Today, God is often mistakenly conflated with Satan by bright, logical, well-intentioned, moral people; they read the Scriptures by the letter and misattribute to God violence, vindictiveness, and unfairness (as did, on occasion, the very prophets who wrote the Scriptures).



I have never seen the term illumination in the bible, though I am willing to be tortured if found wrong. :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

It requires the ability to read and be open to the possibility that God’s word might well have some worth.

I might say that the illumination is simply the Holy spirit tapping us on the shoulder (in whatever way it happens) and thus we start on a long slog of an incredible journey figuring out what this YAWH is all about.

The “to be correctly interpreted” is beyond me but hey Hermano, go for it.:grin:


I fully concur with that, brother.

Mt.16:16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.

Matthew 13:16
But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.

1 Corinthians 2:10
But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

Galatians 1:16
to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not rush to consult with flesh and blood,

I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, (Eph.1:18)

Acts 26:18
to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those sanctified by faith in Me.’

20You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.(1 Jn.2:20)

1 John 2:27
And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught.

Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. (Acts 17:11)

15Make every effort to present yourself approved to God, an unashamed workman who accurately handles the word of truth. 16But avoid irreverent and empty chatter, which will only lead to more ungodliness, (2 Tim.2:15)


For me to call a Being who causes people to suffer forever “loving”, I would need my heart cauterized. I would need to lose my humanity. I guess I’m just going through a rough stretch. Any recommend reads?


The Inescapable Love of God by Tom Talbot


Look, I believe there is no such thing as the evangelical use of hell, the hell that causes souls to be tormented for eternity, and Cindy, as an admin, you know of my posts,

Do you believe in hell as the evangelicals describe?

(forgive me if my searches have not brought forth the info necessary)


Chad, I recommended a universalist book (which I’ve found comforting) to Qaz.

No. I still do not believe ECT. I haven’t changed since the last time you asked me and it’s hard to understand why you keep asking me this or what it has to do with my remark to Qaz.


God’s love is inescapable as is His justice. Justice is to protect and serve and love protects from evil. God’s love and justice run together. I don’t see anything inhumane about God protecting His children from evil. Moreover, the torment is the kind and is calibrated just right to restrain the evil in hell from harming each other. God is love and love protects from evil even on those who are in hell who have hardened their hearts towards God because of His wrath.

For these reasons I’m a hopeful universalist. The gates of the city remain open


Many who dismiss the Zombie Apocalypse…as the most probably, end times tribulation model - will say that, to their dismay. Please note that this reply is in keeping with the topic. :wink:

What if reality is a living nightmare?

Please note that if the Zombie Apocalypse occurs, it will only be temporal - NOT eternal.