What is justification and why is it necessary?

[maintenanceman]

Ok, I’ll get it eventually, not a problem!!
Got too much to worry about, what with the colonoscopy ‘prep’ (what a glorious euphemism for what that really is ) tomorrow and the thing itself next day I"ve had them before, no big deal.

Gosh, I’ll pray for ya… bad juju when someone sticks something in the nether regions…

Good luck.

[anon12438761]

It’s not that bad, plus they give me the pictures! Ronda has a collection of them. That perhaps was TMI

[Bob_Wilson]

for me at least, it’s the idea that counts. I don’t like arguing the meaning of greek words. That to me is your job.
Love you,

Chad

Thanks. That helps me understand, and I appreciate your patience. As I said, I usually like your ideas and often agree with them. But as you suggest, my exegetical background inclines me toward asking how theological ideas ultimately compare with the N.T. (which happens to use challenging Greek words). Of course, I seldom convince others of my acumen even on that

I love you too,
Bob

[davo]

Abram was declared “righteous” purely on BELIEF alone and such was instantaneously imputed to him (Gen 15:6)

I quote a famous saying of yours, “THAT I would submit is a purely subjective view… held by many so you are not alone.”

There is absolutely nothing subjective here, just plain unequivocal statements that are impossible to explain away…

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Rom 4:2-4 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

It was NOT “instantaneously imputed to him.” The Greek of Gen 15:6 of the Septugint, and its quote in Romans 4:4 are identical. Neither of them have "counted AS righteousness.

Well you can quibble over the “AS” as per some translations, but regardless… <εἰς> eis typically rendered means “into” with various cognates following — thus Abraham at God’s declaration was imputed, accounted or reckoned to be righteous; being placed into the state of right-standing with Himself, i.e., righteousness. Such righteousness was NOT something Abraham had to wait and wait and work at, NO… his righteousness was conferred upon him AT THAT TIME — as those two text above again make unequivocally CLEAR!

Abraham was NOT in the process of attaining righteousness as per your unique theory, NO, he attained it by God’s grace (4:4) then and there. The word <ἐλογίσθη > elogisthē meaning to reckon, account or “impute” is in the passive voice MEANING Abraham had NO action or affect within it in OTHER THAN to receive it that is… this was ALL ABOUT God’s act of grace TOWARD Abraham — there’s your GOAL; it was righteousness towards Abraham NOT Abraham toward righteousness… he received it then and there. Again your theory leaves your cart before the horse.

So God counted Abraham’s faith TOWARD righteousness, with righteousness being the goal of his faith.

Again you have it back to front. Abraham’s goal was to serve God with the fruit of his righteous, i.e., he would bring blessing BECAUSE OF the righteous standing he had been blessed with — thus blessed to be a blessing (Gen 12:3).

Acts 15:9 and he made no distinction between us and them, CLEANSING their hearts by faith.

If then you are trying to draw the link between cleansing to righteousness well then look AGAIN at the means… such cleansing was predicated on FAITH, i.e., trusting belief — “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Your rationale fails and falls even under your own examples.

Romans 3:26 …to show the righteousness of God at the present time that He might be righteous and RENDERING righteous the one who has faith in Jesus.

The Greek verb for “cleansing” is an aorist active participle—thus cleansing their hearts as a process, they coöperating with God’s work through exercising faith.

Yes and… — the process is called “sanctification”.

That Paul meant a PRACTICAL righteousness brought about by faith is evident in the following passage:

What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Romans 9:30 ESV

Again Paidion this very verse makes my point and undermines yours with regards to God’s righteousness, as Paul says… the Gentiles HAVE attained it — it WAS NOT a process to one day after eons of self-works be reached, NO — they ATTAINED it then and there LIKE Abraham, via faith, not works. The process of works is but a reflection or fruit of righteousness… NOT the means for it. If you think it is you have sorely misread Paul.

[LLC]

I cannot speak for bank robbers or pagans, I can only rely on the Scriptures… something I choose to trust as per…

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Rom 4:2-4 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

You are not obligated to believe these Scriptures and I doubt God thinks of you any less if you don’t, but I choose to believe what is there in black and white without any need to whitewash it away through endless contortions.

Davo,As Paidion has already mentioned, I believe these Scriptures:

James 2:19-24 “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?..You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

[davo]

I cannot speak for bank robbers or pagans, I can only rely on the Scriptures… something I choose to trust as per…

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Rom 4:2-4 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

You are not obligated to believe these Scriptures and I doubt God thinks of you any less if you don’t, but I choose to believe what is there in black and white without any need to whitewash it away through endless contortions.

Davo,As Paidion has already mentioned, I believe these Scriptures:

James 2:19-24 “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?..You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

What James points out is that the (lifelong) process of “works” is but a reflection or the fruit OF righteousness… NOT the means FOR righteousness. If you think it is you have sorely misread James.

[Paidion]

Well Davo, I guess it’s a comforting thought to believe that God has counted you as righteous whether you are righteous or not.

That part of your belief is similar to that of Fundamentalists and many evangelicals. They think they’ll go to heaven at death if they “accepted Christ as their personal Saviour” or “trusted in His atoning work on the cross” (what must be done varies among them; there are several other formulae as well). They say their “salvation” (being saved from hell) has nothing to do with their “works” (how they live). For when God looks at them, He doesn’t see their sin but Christ’s righteousness. This is a grave error. Paul taught that whether we receive glory and honour and immortality from God OR receive God’s wrath—affliction and anguish, depends upon whether we live lives of righteousness or whether we practice evil. And of course we need the enabling grace of God to live consistently righteous lives as Paul taught in Titus 2.

Romans 2:6-10

For He will render to everyone according to his works.

To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,
He will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth,
but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek, for God shows no partiality.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Well, let’s see what Anglican NT Wright and an Eastern Orthodox - say on Youtube (Each only 5 minutes or so)

[maintenanceman]

qaz said

If only perfect (sinless) people are justified then it’s not clear to me what role there is to play for Jesus’s resurrection.

[maintenanceman]

qaz, to expound, here is what Mike William says about redemption. (very apropos)

REDEMPTIONISM

Redemptionism: The doctrine that all of humanity was redeemed (i.e., saved, sanctified) through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and asserting that the redemption of all was completed and concluded in his resurrection. There was no further need for scriptural fulfillment thereafter.

The advent of the redemptionist doctrine began with Michael Williams in the early 1990’s. Williams is the President and Founder of Mike Williams Ministries and the Gospel Revolution.

Redemptionism, by its very definition in the opening paragraph, asserts a number of things, which comprise three fundamental conclusions: 1. All of humanity is redeemed through Jesus Christ. 2. The redemption of all humanity is a historical event that was completed and concluded in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (referred to as “at the cross”). 3. All Scripture was fulfilled at the cross.

THE REDEMPTION OF ALL HUMANITY

Redemptionism asserts that all of humanity was condemned by the imputation of the disobedience (sin) of the first Adam to everyone, and in like manner and even greater, the righteousness of Christ, who was the Last Adam, was imputed to all who were in the First Adam according to the letters of Paul the Apostle.

According to the Hebrew Scriptures, God made covenant with the Hebrew patriarch Abraham, which promised that a descendant of his would be the Messiah who, when he comes, would establish a new covenant of everlasting peace and righteousness by the permanent remission of all sin in one day thereby ending the first covenant. In the process, the Adamic species along with heaven and earth passed away at the cross and all things were made new in what is called the “new creation.” This is all confirmed in the New Testament writings to the Romans, Corinthians and Hebrews.

REDEMPTION WAS AT THE CROSS

Redemptionism also asserts that the redemption of all humanity from the law of sin and death happened at the cross of Christ ca. 2,000 years ago as a completed work, not an ongoing work in the lives of individuals or some future event that is yet to happen.

Redemptionism holds that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah prophesied in the Scriptures. He accomplished the establishment of the new covenant as a “kinsman redeemer,” who was qualified to redeem the world from the curse of the first Adam because he was related by blood and hence, the perfect sacrifice and the perfect high priest having been born not of man but of the spirit. These three things were demonstrated and foretold in the Scriptures to the Jews through prophecies that a kinsman redeemer would come and that a Messiah would offer a perfect sacrifice as opposed to the symbolically ceremonial sacrifices of Jews that did not take away sin. Christ was identified by John the Baptist as the “Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”. Jesus achieved this through his death as a man, thus redeeming or “saving” the world as he himself said he would by offering his own blood, and by being sinless, destroying the curse of the law and sin, thus sanctifying and redeeming all kinsmen in the first Adam. In his resurrection, he is a perfect high priest who never dies thus raising all of humanity who shared in his death as new creatures. The Letter to the Hebrews confirms that “sin was put away” by the sacrifice of himself and that this needed to only happen once for all time because he lives forever as the Great High Priest who presented the perfect sacrifice.

ALL SCRIPTURE WAS FULFILLED AT THE CROSS

Fundamental to the doctrine of redemptionism is the distinction between what does and does not qualify as scripture and that all scripture is fulfilled.

The Holy Scriptures are what the apostle Paul referred to as “the oracles of God,” which were the written text scribed under strict code by the Jews that they compiled in the Jewish Bible called the Tannakh. The modern Christian Bible calls the Jewish scriptures the Old Testament as found in the King James Version though divided and ordered differently yet is still comprised of the same writings. All of the Jewish holy writ was scribed long before the actually birth of Christ. Both the redemptionist and the Jewish view is that nothing ever written after the last book of the Old Testament (Malachi) qualifies as “Scripture” including and especially what is referred to in the Christian Bible as “New Testament.” All of the writers of the New Testament texts and the speakers who are quoted in them are unanimous to what they referred to and called “scripture,” which was only the Jewish Scriptures. None of those writers or speakers ever said or implied that their own words were scripture and the opinions expressed in the New Testament writings actually assert that quite the opposite was quite true. Furthermore, none of the New Testament texts were scribed according to the rigid supervision of the Jewish scribal code.

One of the most significant tenets of redemptionism comes from Jesus’ own statements about scripture and his specific purpose for coming as pertaining to the scripture. Jesus told the people of many things that he came to do. In one of those instances, he referred to the scripture, specifically the law and the prophets. In that statement, he said that he did not come to destroy them but to fulfill them. He further prescribed the only way that could happen. He said that not even one of the tiniest parts of the law could pass away until all is fulfilled. This decree stipulates that all prophecy and all law have to be fulfilled for even the tiniest part to be fulfilled. The redemptionist doctrine asserts that even Christianity accepts that some parts of the law have passed away but that that is Biblically incorrect by Jesus’ own decree. Redemptionism not only exposes the Christian fallacy, it declares that all scripture was fulfilled in the event of the cross.

Finally, the redemptionist doctrine refers often to the New Testament writings and regularly asserts that the writers themselves not only did not completely agree but even disputed amongst themselves. Redemptionist reliance on any supportive text from the New Testament writings is only after verifying and validating statements from those writings (like the “noble Bereans”) against the Jewish scriptures to discern whether or not what is written in them is correct and true.

Kind of ‘Good News’

[Paidion]

If only perfect (sinless) people are justified then it’s not clear to me what role there is to play for Jesus’s resurrection.

Qaz, it is a common misunderstanding that the position that I described and which Paul took, requires that a person must be sinless to be acceptable to God. Well… that is God’s ultimate aim, but as I explained to Davo, salvation is a life-long process of purification that will some day be complete.
The apostle Paul wrote in Philippians 1:6

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

[maintenanceman]

As davo says:

What James points out is that the (lifelong) process of “works” is but a reflection or the fruit OF righteousness… NOT the means FOR righteousness. If you think it is you have sorely misread James.

Paidion , I would say you are continually advocating works righteousness. Whether ‘I have to be perfect now’ or your flavor ‘I will be perfect in due time alas… maybe even a lifetime’ You said

salvation is a life-long process of purification that will some day be complete

So what about those who do not (or maybe historically did not) have a lifetime? Your Idea of salvation is at best obscurely possible, because you heap loads of obstacles. You said in another thread:

Look around you, Gabe. There are millions of people without VICE! Look around you openly, sincerely, and honestly for people without VICE! That is my AD-VICE.

You may need to re think that one.

Riddle: If salvation is a life long journey that people were required to complete, then why was Jesus even sent to them.

[Paidion]

Paidion , I would say you are continually advocating works righteousness.

Chad, you are parroting thousands of others who misunderstand the process of salvation. “Works righteousness” suggests becoming righteous through self-effort. NEVER have I suggested such a thing! Indeed, I know no one who holds to that idea.

So what about those who do not (or maybe historically did not) have a lifetime?

Yes, people die before they are even born (That was the case with one of my own offspring). Others die from 1 day old through to as old as 120 years.
However, everyone who has submitted to Christ will grow in righteousness by the enabling grace of God (Titus 2). I believe in post-mortem correction, not only for Christ haters, but for Christians themselves who need it. Jesus’ own words: “Everyone will be salted with fire.” Both salt and fire are purifying agents.

Riddle: If salvation is a life long journey that people were required to complete, then why was Jesus even sent to them.

Not much riddle in that question. Jesus was a teacher of righteousness. His words as recorded in Mathew 5, 6, and 7 give specific direction for righteous living. Twice Paul referred to “The law of Christ.”

1Co 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.
Ga 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

Also Jesus Himself, who was fully human, lived righteously Himself and never sinned. He was an example of what is possible for anyone. Then by His death, the enabling grace of God for righteous living became available to those who would accept that grace.

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)

[maintenanceman]

And every verse you quoted was dealing with Christ’s and Paul’s contemporaries. Would you not agree?

[Origen]

Lk.18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Lk.23:39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was [a]hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving [c]what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come [d]in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

[Paidion]

And every verse you quoted was dealing with Christ’s and Paul’s contemporaries. Would you not agree?

Yes, I agree. And the truth of them applies to everyone else. They have universal application.

Is “acceptable to God” the same thing as justified?

No. We are acceptable to God right now, if we have begun the process of salvation and persist in it. We may sometimes slip up and do wrong, but we can repent (have a change of heart and mind) concerning what we did, and get right back on track again. The word translated as “justify” means “rendered righteous.” If we are coöperating with God’s enabling grace to help us become righteous we are acceptable to God and are BEING rendered righteous—a process that will some day be completed.

[anon12438761]

“Redemptionism: The doctrine that all of humanity was redeemed (i.e., saved, sanctified) through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and asserting that the redemption of all was completed and concluded in his resurrection.”

There are some very plain teachings in the NT that blow that doctrine to smithereens. However, the tactic of avoiding those teachings by claiming they do not apply to us does eliminate the smithereening: but at what cost ? And what is the basis of that tactic?

Especially - all of humanity was SANCTIFIED by the death and resurrection of Jesus? Sanctification is a process, not a gift, and it is our high privilege to work out our salvation.

Work out our salvation - it actually says that in the NT post-resurrection. We are not saved by our ‘works’ - I don’t know anyone who believes that - but certainly our call is to life-long faithfulness - stemming from God’s faithfulness - and as Paul said “seeking glory and honor etc.” through well-doing.

I’m still working on understanding. Maybe if I wasn’t so deep into Romans right now this would not be pushing any buttons; but I am, and feeling the weight and wisdom of Paul, I think there are some real misunderstandings here. However, if the scriptures are not on the playing field because they are ‘not for us’, we have no chance of convincing each other.

[LLC]

Redemptionism: The doctrine that all of humanity was redeemed (i.e., saved, sanctified) through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and asserting that the redemption of all was completed and concluded in his resurrection."

I disagree with Mike William as well.

We are not saved by our ‘works’ - I don’t know anyone who believes that

It depends on what kind of salvation one is talking about. To me, the bible has nothing to do with the afterlife. It is about finding God on earth, and Him dwelling amongst us. What good is this life if we don’t have that?

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

It depends on what kind of salvation one is talking about. To me, the bible has nothing to do with the afterlife. It is about finding God on earth, and Him dwelling amongst us. What good is this life if we don’t have that?

Well, I’m NOT so far removed - from that idea. Where I embrace the Eastern Orthodox / Eastern Catholic position of Theosis (i.e. bit.ly/2DcDr3C)… the Franciscan view of contemplation (i.e. cac.org/)… and TV evangelist, Joel Osteen’s view - of expecting good things from God.

Now if I can just figure out…how to keep the zombies away…during the tribulation and Zombie Apocalypse…I’m good to go.

[davo]

Well Davo, I guess it’s a comforting thought to believe that God has counted you as righteous whether you are righteous or not.

If God counts someone righteous they ARE righteous, period, regardless of your disbelief — there is NONE of YOUR performance caveat of… “whether you are righteous or not” to it!

That part of your belief is similar to that of Fundamentalists and many evangelicals. They think they’ll go to heaven at death if they “accepted Christ as their personal Saviour” or “trusted in His atoning work on the cross” (what must be done varies among them; there are several other formulae as well). They say their “salvation” (being saved from hell) has nothing to do with their “works” (how they live). For when God looks at them, He doesn’t see their sin but Christ’s righteousness. This is a grave error.

Just as I expected… absolutely NOTHING relevant in answer to the unmissable, unmistakably CLEAR and straightforward texts of Gen 15:5; Rom 4:2-3. Like so many texts before, are these to be annexed and excised to the Paidion chopping-block of awkward and inconvenient texts because they run a hole right through the middle of your “righteousification” doctrine? For those following, here they are again…

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Rom 4:2-3 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

Belief + Accounted = put INTO right-standing… God’s equation NOT man’s.

Paul taught that whether we receive glory and honour and immortality from God OR receive God’s wrath—affliction and anguish, depends upon whether we live lives of righteousness or whether we practice evil.

As highlighted above… this is where you get tricky in slipping words into supposed texts (to give an air of authority or authenticity) that actually are NOT there. Rom 2:6-10 is simply about the consequences of DOING good or evil… blessed or dire. But Paul was NOT TEACHING YOUR ‘lifelong righteousification’ doctrine, or as you like to claim… “…the position that I described and which Paul took…” — FALSE!

Well… that is God’s ultimate aim, but as I explained to Davo, salvation is a life-long process of purification that will some day be complete.

THAT hasn’t been what you’ve been saying at all BUT rather… the lifelong process of righteousness — there’s a mile of difference between ‘righteousness’ and that of ‘salvation’. What IS a lifelong process is SANCITIFICATION for the believer… big difference.

In the mosaic of the Old Covenant… Israel as a nation WAS redeemed. Of those redeemed certain ones were ‘called’ — dedicated and sanctified — the Aaronic priesthood. This priesthood SERVED before God and to the rest of the redeemed.

In the big picture of the New Covenant… Humanity HAS been reconciled. Of those reconciled certain ones can be ‘called’ — dedicated and sanctified — the priesthood of Believers. This priesthood SERVES before God and to the rest of the reconciled.
ALL that you have been banging on about could be better explained as… the lifelong process of the sanctification of believers who hopefully work the works of righteousness, but not TOWARD your GOAL of achieving final “righteousification”. NO… such works of righteous service are toward God and others.

NOT everybody in Israel was “called” to serve and yet everyone was redeemed. NOT everybody in humanity is called to serve and yet everyone has been reconciled. Jesus said it best…

Mt 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

The OT account of Gideon is a prime example of this principle in play. Israel was God’s redeemed people AND YET out of her certain ones were called for a redemptive task of deliverance. This entailed the whittling down and choosing of the called ones to a certain refined number. Now, NONE of those REJECTED from that redemptive task became thereby evil, lost or reprobates, NO — they were simply not chosen to that specific redemptive calling. Thus… “many are called, but few are chosen”.

The point being… ?? They weren’t TRYING to become something — they understood already who they were, quite apart from their works.