What is Revelation 22:15 really telling us?

[gandalfsbeard]

Dear Aaron37,

I am really glad that you believe in the authority of Scripture. I am also glad that you profess faith in Jesus Christ. I hope that grace is with your spirit and that you are well.

I think that your intentions would be better served by writing with an attitude that is open to alternative points of view. All of the posts of yours that I have read seem to read something like this: "I’m right. Your wrong. The Bible says I’m right. I hope you will finally see the truth and listen to the Bible someday "

Even if your reading of Scripture is correct, I can tell you that your attitude is less than persuasive. I cannot say that I believe it is the manner in which Paul wrote.

Ok. Biblical response to being burned alive.

1. Omnipotence of God.
2. Love of God.
3. 1 Corinthians 3:15.
4. 1 John 2:2.
5. 1 Timothy 2:4.
6. Baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
7. i) Humans bear the image of God. ii) The image of God is a part of God’s creation. iii) God will redeem his whole creation. iv) Therefore, God will redeem all humans.

Basically, your argument depends upon the annihilation/burning being permanent and irreversible. Unless you intend to claim omniscience (I would hope not), you must admit that you are not certain of what God will do with the burned after that. Personally, I believe that it would be blasphemous to claim a limited atonement. If the atonement extends to all, then the foundation of Christ is laid to all (see Romans 5:17-21, 1 John 2:2, 1 Corinthians 3:15). If that is true, then the flames are simply the 1 Corinthians 3:15 process of all the works in a person’s life being judged and burned, but the person, the God-image bearer, the atoned by Christ, will be saved.

I think that you would be better served by admitting that you are not omniscient, that the word of God is not entirely clear as to the fate of the lost, and that you hope with all your heart and soul that all people will be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. To offer less would be to own a kind of pride that I think is less than becoming of a follower of the way.

[JasonPratt]

Hi again, GB!

You wouldn’t have known this, but the ad/mods after a very long period concluded BA/Aaron (without going into the many, many details) was being a troll. So he’s on a quasi-permanent ban until and unless he shows the admins evidence of his improved recent behavior elsewhere.

But the important point is that he’s no longer here to reply to posts, or to challenges, so please don’t count it against him if he doesn’t reply – because he can’t reply due to ongoing admin action.

Relatedly, we’re still watching to make sure people don’t take advantage of his ban to gang up on him while he can’t reply in his defense. You aren’t in trouble for that yet (you weren’t trying to take advantage of his situation, and were being pretty nice in replying to him); that’s just a standard reminder to play fair once the situation is known.

Nice to see you again, though! You’ll only need to post a few more times for the system to start letting you through the spamcatcher automatically. Don’t be discouraged at the post delay until then.

[Neil]

Dear Aaron37,

I am really glad that you believe in the authority of Scripture. I am also glad that you profess faith in Jesus Christ. I hope that grace is with your spirit and that you are well.

I think that your intentions would be better served by writing with an attitude that is open to alternative points of view. All of the posts of yours that I have read seem to read something like this: "I’m right. Your wrong. The Bible says I’m right. I hope you will finally see the truth and listen to the Bible someday "

Even if your reading of Scripture is correct, I can tell you that your attitude is less than persuasive. I cannot say that I believe it is the manner in which Paul wrote.

Ok. Biblical response to being burned alive.

1. Omnipotence of God.
2. Love of God.
3. 1 Corinthians 3:15.
4. 1 John 2:2.
5. 1 Timothy 2:4.
6. Baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
7. i) Humans bear the image of God. ii) The image of God is a part of God’s creation. iii) God will redeem his whole creation. iv) Therefore, God will redeem all humans.

Basically, your argument depends upon the annihilation/burning being permanent and irreversible. Unless you intend to claim omniscience (I would hope not), you must admit that you are not certain of what God will do with the burned after that. Personally, I believe that it would be blasphemous to claim a limited atonement. If the atonement extends to all, then the foundation of Christ is laid to all (see Romans 5:17-21, 1 John 2:2, 1 Corinthians 3:15). If that is true, then the flames are simply the 1 Corinthians 3:15 process of all the works in a person’s life being judged and burned, but the person, the God-image bearer, the atoned by Christ, will be saved.

I think that you would be better served by admitting that you are not omniscient, that the word of God is not entirely clear as to the fate of the lost, and that you hope with all your heart and soul that all people will be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. To offer less would be to own a kind of pride that I think is less than becoming of a follower of the way.

agreed…gr8 reply !..you know calvinists and many arminianists believe people will burn forever in hell …on top of all the suffering the world gone thru we’re s’posed to believe this ? .no, it cannot be …why dont they read jeremiah where God says He hates molech ?..the god of burning fire ? .so, God hates molech cos he burns folks but will burn folks Himself ?..bahhh !..thats nonsense.

[Neil]

Rather than teaching that the souls of the lost ones are “milling around the exterior of the walls of the holy city,” Revelation 22:15 teaches that they won’t be there. Moffat translates Revelation 22:15 in this way: “Begone, you dogs, you sorcerers, you vicious creatures, you murderers, you idolaters, you who love and practice falsehood, every one of you.” Other translations render the Greek word “exo”; i.e., “outside” or “without,” as “excluded.” Those who refuse to repent will be EXCLUDED from access to the Kingdom of God and the holy city. They will be in the lake of fire which is the second and final death, from which there is no resurrection back to life.

Source: COTEG.

God bless,
Aaron

Happily, God disagrees with you.If the Bible didn’t say certain things, I might not have embraced Universal Reconciliation simply because the idea is so stupendous…however. the fact is the Bible does say certain things…

e.g, 2 Peter 3:9 says ( Strong’s definitions included) ,

’ The Lord is not (Gk= ‘ou’= not, none, nothing) slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not (Gk= ‘me’= not, not at all, none at all ) willing ( the Greek word for ‘willing’ is = ‘boúlomai’ =“resolutely plan”,planning for, intending, ) for anyone (Gk= ‘tis’= anyone at all ) to perish, but everyone (Gk =‘pantas’ = all, everyone) to come to repentance’.

The Greek word ‘boulomai’ is a very strong term according to Strongs and means, in the strongest language possible, that God is ‘resolutely planning’ for all to come to repentance. What does repentance lead to ?..it leads to salvation.

Therefore, what Almighty God ‘resolutely plans’, MUST happen.

Therefore ALL will ultimately be redeemed.If they are not all redeemed, God is not capable of getting what He wants to get. Honestly, people who believe millions will be eternally lost,who believe not all will ultimately be saved, are simply not believing what God plainly says in His word.

BTW, If we are going to talk about so called ‘free will’ I must say that the Lord’s will and determination to save somebody is infinitely greater than that persons will to reject Him.

[JasonPratt]

Guys, remember: BAaron isn’t here anymore. I’m not sure he even receives emails for alerts on old threads, but even if he does that’s worse because he can’t reply.

You can talk about the things he talks about, but it isn’t fair to him to address him directly. He can’t defend himself because we admins are keeping him out until he shows (by recent evidence of his behavior elsewhere) that he can be a good opponent (instead of, in essence, a troll.)

[Neil]

Guys, remember: BAaron isn’t here anymore. I’m not sure he even receives emails for alerts on old threads, but even if he does that’s worseabout

the things he talks about, but it isn’t fair to him to address him directly. He can’t defend himself because we admins are keeping him out until he shows (by recent evidence of his behavior elsewhere) that he can be a good opponent (instead of, in essence, a troll.)

agreed… its not fair to address him directly if he’s gone but I didn’t know he was ‘gone’. Actually, I’m not addressing him anyway as I don’t even know the man…never met him/addressed him/talked to him, online …merely quoting and addressing the (false) points he’ s raising because I cant ignore people misrepresenting and maligning God by saying He torments people forever…especially when they do it on a Christian UR website…

I also never knew he was no longer a fully functioning member here …

are we allowed to even address the points he raises by quoting his comments ?..would be nice to know 'cos I see that he was once very active here going by the number of comments he has left in different threads around the forum…

it would be nice to know if we are allowed to click the ‘quote button’ and quote his comments and address his points/ questions/ assertions, or not allowed…

it’s pretty hard not to address him personally when one clicks the ‘quote’ button and quotes his comment 'cos his name automatically appears in the ‘box’ …is there any way to avoid his name automatically appearing in the ‘box’ when his comment is quoted ?.

to be on the safe side maybe we should try and delete his name within the quoted comment box (if that’s possible, I havent tried ) or perhaps better still, to be on the safe side and avoid the hassle, simply ignore his comments altogether till such time as he returns…cheers !.

[JasonPratt]

Well, yes, those are are valid tensions. The generally held solution is: talk about his ideas in third person, quoting him like you would an author you’re copy pasting from somewhere else, but avoid personal challenges (since in theory an author somewhere else could be allowed, and even encouraged, to register and reply).