What is the Gospel & a Christian


#41

Hi Dave…

Well the theology does fit as well as the history… You want to keep yanking your idea that the gospel is pertaining to all of us here and now, so go ahead, you will be as all evangelicals are in wallowing in a quagmire of when the utopia might happen…

You are smarter than that. :open_mouth:


#42

Yes I am, but I am not an Evangelical either, according to definitions hereabouts.
Nor am I actually ‘wallowing’, wherever that came from. :open_mouth:


#43

Well, wallowing was my description. :smiley: Look, let’s ask if you are at least interested in the idea that maybe God may have did what He wanted to do in the history of the NT, at the time of the destruction of the second temple? :question:


#44

God can do whatever He pleases: certainly He could have done that. Am I interested in that speculation? I have been interested enough to do some reading - not light reading either - and I recognize some strength in your position as I understand it. I do feel though, with all respect, that a number of the things I have read have not been fruitful (again with the fruit?) but have been forced upon the text.
For me, the most natural way to understand the ‘arc’ of the biblical story is in terms of Paul’s writings, especially now in Romans , and the overall sense of what Wright was writing about in that essay. And Channing’s approach. And MacDonald. Etc.
And here I raise mine Ebenezer!! :sunglasses: Outside the Evangelical tent, put there by their definition, not mine, nor scripture’s ; creedal up to the Apostle’s creed only; non-Trin by necessity but not thereby less Christian, I trust, though I have been thusly accused; and overall pretty danged happy most days.
Hey, we have to make our choices.


#45

Dave, what definition is that? Here are Webster’s first three definitions:

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evangelical

According to the book “The Evangelical Universalist”, which mirrors the name of this website, for Evangelical Universalists a “motivation to proclaim Christ that [Calvinist] Packer lacks - [is] to ensure that as few people go to hell as possible” (p.169, 2nd ed).

Related to the topic of “hell” is the question i asked in the OP, “What is the Gospel & a Christian”? Are people such as the following headed for “hell” even if they profess to be Christians & believe the gospel of grace:

1 Cor.6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.(Berean Literal Bible)

Gal.5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, contentions, dissensions, factions, 21 envyings, drunkennesses, carousing, and things like these, as to which I forewarn you, even as I warned before, that those doing such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.

Revelation 21:8
But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death."

Revelation 22:15
But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.


#46

I have a problem with anybody that makes you pay a ton of money to listen to their sermons


#47

I do too. And they “haven’t a clue” - regarding marketing. You give stuff away, so that people will buy things. In this case, let’s look at TV evangelists. Or any mainline Christian churches, that have sermons online. They are free to listen to. They are giving this stuff away. WHY? If it’s a brick and mortar church, you will go visit them. If it’s a TV evangelist, you will donate to their ministry, buy their books and CDs, etc.

So the first lesson of marketing. You give away content, so folks will see you - as a subject matter expert. Then they will be more open, to buy things - you have to offer.

Since Origen brought up evangelical, here’s what I just shared - in another thread here.

The Calvinist site Got Questions, has the following Q and A:

What is an Evangelical Christian?

Well, according to the definition in paragraph 1…this would NOT only cover the major Protestant denominations, non-denominational, Bible and community churches…But Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy - as well.

.Here’s an example of a “good marketer” , but a “lousy gospel representative”. :laughing:

But read these articles first, folks!

Scam Everlasting: After 25 Years, Debunked Faith Healer Still Preaching Debt Relief Scam
Peter Popoff - Wiki

Here’s a question. If you DON"T send Popoff a check - for his miracles…Does he send this guy, to collect the debt :question: :laughing:


#48

Origen: #2 - protestant

One definition:
Protestants …adhere to the Nicene Creed believe in three persons (God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit) as one God.

Movements emerging around the time of the Protestant Reformation, but not a part of Protestantism, e.g. Unitarianism also reject the Trinity. This often serves as a reason for exclusion of the Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement, Unitarian Universalism, Oneness Pentecostalism and other movements from Protestantism by observers. " -Wiki

I’ve used the term ‘code words’ previously - religious terms are often code for ‘what we in the group believe to be true’ - terms like ‘believer’ ‘saved’ ‘evangelical’ - mean different things to different groups, and serve as a method of exclusion. A dictionary is not often definitive (pun intended).


#49

Well first of all, thanks for the recognition of maybe possible. I also think Paul has a bridge between many different views. I also agree that much of what I have spewed out to you has little validity in organized religion. That is the curse that I have to unfortunately live with.

Look, I appreciate Channing and Mac Donald, but am at a different place. :wink: But you are where you are. And I can and do appreciate it.

For what it is worth, I had a new Granddaughter born today. life is good. :laughing: Yes we make our choices. I appreciate and see your view as not only valid but something I think about. And I do think about them. Thanks Bro.


#50

CONGRATULATIONS!!! Happy news indeed!!

And what is the wee lass’s name?


#51

Well congrats to you Chad :slight_smile: I became a grandfather myself for the first time 9wks ago… a cute little grandson. Life sure is good! :smiley:


#52

Yep. Name is Klaira, cool that I got to see her tonight. Looks just like her mother.


#53

Well, hold on to your hat :laughing: I now have 6 grandchildren and the ride is fun and wild. :wink:
Thanks David.


#54

Thanks Dave, her name is Klaira, and she is a gem. :smiley:


#55

She wouldn’t be cute too, though , right? :smiley: :smiley:


#56

Does not take after grandpa. :wink:


#57

Thanks guys…

You are indeed friends.

Love you all.


#58

A Condensation of “Salvation from Sin”
Which is Chapter 1 of The Hope of the Gospel
by George MacDonald


#59

Wow! That was good, Don (and even the more because I’ve read it before). Thanks so much for posting it!


#60

Yes, that is the best possible news, and the medicine, the strong medicine, the world desperately needs. And me 2.