The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What is the Gospel?

Theology Soteriology
#61

Hi Dave,
Yes, I have looked at this Unitarian teachingl, and I have participated in a Christadelphian site as well where the same argument was offered.
I wasn’t using Christ’s statement in an attempt to show that Jesus was the Great “I AM”. I was using it only in the sense of “Before Abraham, I was.” If Jesus WAS before Abraham, then He must have existed before his birth. For Him to have pre-existed, doesn’t imply that He was God Himself, but it does agree with the fact that He is the Son of God, and agrees with the early Christian teaching that He was begotten by God before all ages. That is different from his having been begotten in the womb of Mary his mother. The latter only indicates his beginning as a human being.

My position is that, as the Son of God who was begotten as the first of God’s acts, Jesus was fully divine, and thus another divine Individual, different from God the Father, but just as divine, because He is God’s Son. When people beget offspring, they are human like their parents. When God begets offspring (He begat only One), that offspring is divine like Himself.

Notwithstanding, I am a (small “u”) unitarian, as was Jesus Himself, who addressed his Father as “the only true God” (John 17:3). Jesus, although equally divine with the Father, was not God Himself. Yet, because of his divinity He can be called “God” in the sense of his essence, as John used the word in John 1:1 where he wrote that the Logos (the son of God) was God, or as the grammar allows, "The Logos was God-stuff (or God-essence).

#62

Understood! I’ll keep thinking about it.

#63

:wink:

#64

Dave, I think that the reason the leaders of Israel called Jesus a blasphemer was because He called Himself a Son of God. According to them, they were the son of God. Exodus4:22 says this: “Thus says the Lord, Israel is My son, My firstborn.” However, they were not following God’s word. They were following their own interpretations of the scriptures. The leaders themselves were the only ones that were able to interpret the scriptures properly; all the rest being simple-minded humans with no knowledge of the divine.

Paidion, According to Jeremiah 1:4-5 “Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying; Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; and I ordained you a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah was also a son of God.
Proverbs 8: 22 says this of wisdom “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old, I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.” Is wisdom a separate “person” of God? I believe we all have some of the divine essence of God. If we do not have this then how are we to follow God’s word and do as Jesus did? How are we then sons of God? Psalm 82:6 “Yoou are all sons of the Most High.” Romans 8:14 “For as many are as led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God.”

#65

One reason they wanted to stone Him was because by declaring Himself to be their Messiah, He was making Himself their ruler, and they did not want to be ruled by anyone who would over turn their tables, tear down their temple, lay the axe to the trees, and declare their traditions to be contrary to the living word of YHWH.

He likened them to Cain for a reason. The way of Cain was in them. Greedy, vain, murderous to retain their glory, resentful of the anointing upon Him and the favor shown Him by the people- they were conspiring to kill Him early on.

He claimed to have received from the Father “all authority on heaven and earth”. He called them snakes, hypocrites, wolves and sheep’s clothing, open graves in the night, son of the devil, murderers.

That could still get a body stoned today :wink:

#66

Eaglesway, I totally agree with you here. Those who do not believe in God, think they themselves are God and are all to eager to gain power and control over others anyway they can. This includes deceit, bribery, theft, taking advantage of those who do not know he truth, and murdering those who live and speak the truth of God.

#67

Yes, tho all of those who wished to stone Him laid claim to great faith in God

“We are the sons of Abraham, God is our father”

“if you were sons of Abraham, you would not be trying to kill me”

The appearance of service to God has been one of the greatest cloaks for evil all over the world through out the age. Islam and Catholicism. The nationalistic Protestantism of late middle age Europe, contemporary Western right wing fundamentalism and American cultural Christianity.

I truly think that they would all try to stone Him along side the Jews and the Romans again, today.

For instance, if Jesus were here he would not speak against abortion without speaking against the inequity that poverty and racism contributes to it. He would speak to the narcissism of our self-centered Christianity.

He would go to the core of our crookedness.

“Why fight against Islam all over the world when you are losing the war on poverty within your own borders?” “Why make speeches about the oppression of totalitarian regimes as you commit crimes through corrupting the law- helping the strong to rob the weak?” “Why act so horrified over societal sin when you have no salt in you when it comes to defending the fatherless and the aged and widows.”

I think Jesus drew these lines of connection as a part of His gospel,even as the prophets of Israel had, and that is where the “alien-ness” of it is rooted. It teaches fulfillment through caring for others and that God will multiply resources when men are faithful. We(proverbial) teach judging others and caring for ourselves and marvel that our once abundant resources are never enough to make things work. All the while we call upon God to defend us from foes who are empowered by our hypocrisy, and act as if we are righteous, you kno, with a few shortcomings, you know, not perfect but…

IMO, if we dropped food and medicine all over the world the ability to recruit disenfranchised young men into terrorist gangs would be greatly reduced, and God would take up our defense in ways that we do not understand.

The natural man’s service consumes massive resources while accomplishing little and praising itself. True spiritual service multiplies minimal resources, accomplishing much and giving credit to God.

" And they were all as one soul, and great grace was upon them, and no one among them had any need."

#68

The second-century Christian writers, without exception, affirmed that this passage referred to Jesus, the only-begotten Son of God. They wrote that “Wisdom” is one of His many names.

#69

I hear you Eaglesway. As Deuteronomy 5:32 states “Therefore you shall be careful to do as the Lord your God has commanded you; you shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.” Evil comes in many disguises, but the most cunning of all are those who put on the mask of righteousness. This lesson starts at the very beginning of The Bible in the Garden of Eden. There are two trees which both look the same at first, but we see the difference in the fruit that they bear. I, for one, don’t believe that God created man perfect in the sense that He created us without the potential to sin and that we were flawless. Because of this there will always be social and economic disparity. However I do believe that all men are created equal with certain unalienable rights. Being all equal does not mean people don’t have differences. Some who don’t believe in God have a different worldview. There are those who think there is no God because if there is one, there would be no evil, no suffering, no pain or death. Evolutionists tend to think that we evolved from apes, and we will eventually progress to a state of perfection. To them, it’s not right or fair that some have more and some have less. This isn’t fair, that isn’t fair, etc.etc.etc… They simply cannot accept that the world is not a perfect place, and so they paint a picture of some utopian society and say man WILL make it so. To me, this is the mind of a socialist and is the Tower of Babel. Socialism may look and sound righteous, but it is not the gospel of Christ. We need only look at history to see what socialism leads to.By necessity it ends in a communist dictatorship where all are slaves to a ruling class, and there is no freedom. To think that it will end any differently is a deception. Whether a person is rich or poor, be it money or labor, Jesus never said to take anything from anybody to help or provide for those in need. He said to give willingly from the heart. For God is neither a dictator, nor a thief. Will this world ever be a perfect place? I don’t know, maybe, but if so then there is only one way to get there and that is to follow all that God has commanded and shown us to do.

#70

The kingdom of God is coming :astonished:)

He told them still another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into about sixty pounds of flour until it worked all through the dough.”

It is happening because of His kind intention He purposed in Himself who causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will. \o/

“Be of good courage and wait upon the Lord. Wait I say, upon the Lord”

#71

Eaglesway, I agree, and I’d say that the kingdom of God starts the day one wakes up and discovers that God is your Father, and you are His son/daughter; that you will follow in His footsteps, live life to the fullest and be the best son/daughter you can possibly be. To me, that’s a divine revelation. :slight_smile: