The Evangelical Universalist Forum

When did "eternal" change from "ethereal" to "endless"?


#81

Your theory that aion & aionios are always defined as ‘eternal’ everywhere in the Scriptures and never defined as finite duration does not have the support of a single lexicon, Church Father, commentator or dictionary. You’ve been unable to give one source in the past 2000 years that agrees with your definition.

This appears to contradict what you said above. And why repeat the word αἰώνιος twice?

biblehub.com/interlinear/1_timothy/1-17.htm

Young’s Literal Translation
and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory – to the ages of the ages! Amen. (1 Tim.1:17)

The information that God is “King of the ages” is different info (not redundant info) from God being “immortal” & “invisible” & the “only wise God”.
Nothing in this verse says “the ages” referred to are endless. Nothing there says the phrase “to the ages of the ages” means endless. If you are
doing something up “to” a certain time (e.g. ages of the ages"), that leaves it an open question whether or not you keep doing it afterwards.

Additionally, if the ages have an end (1 Cor.10:11; Heb.9:26), then “King of the ages” cannot mean King for endless time.

1.“God exists today”
2. Today “is finite”
3. Therefore God exists during finite days [years, centuries, eras, epochs, milleniums, ancient times/olam, eons & ages]
4. God is also immortal.
5. Therefore God exists both during finite days & immortally.
6. Both are true at the same time.

Therefore when Scripture speaks of One Who is both immortal and King of the ages in the same sentence (1 Tim.1:17), ages can refer to finite periods of time. Whether of finite individual ages or finite corporate ages [of at least two ages].

Thus your argument is refuted.

Actually the opposite of a “moment” can be an “age” of a “finite period”:

merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/moment
en.konjugator.com/moment/
www2.powerthesaurus.org/moment/antonyms/3
en.konjugator.com/aeon/

Also a “moment” is usually a ‘short’ period of time.
An “eon” or “age” can be a ‘long’ period of time.
And ‘long’ is the opposite of ‘short’:

myenglishpages.com/site_php_ … sites2.php

First, in this verse it says “aionios in the heavens”. Scripture says the heavens which now are will pass away. So if these heavens are temporary,
so also can aionios be temporary in 2 Cor.5:1.

Secondly, that the house is not dissolved for an aionion (eonian) period of time does not necessarily mean that eonian means eternal in this verse. For example if something is not dissolved for the eon of the millennial age eon, that doesn’t mean the millennial eon is eternal.

biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/7-24.htm

“hath an unchangeable priesthood] Rather, “hath his priesthood unchangeable” (sempiternum, Vulg.) or perhaps “untransmissible;” “a priesthood that doth not pass to another,” as it is rendered in the margin of our Revised Version.” biblehub.com/commentaries/hebrews/7-24.htm

“This may be explained either as inviolable, or which does not pass over to another. Comp. Exodus 32:8; Sir. 23:18. Usage is in favor of the former meaning, but the other falls in better with the course of thought.” Vincent @ biblehub.com/commentaries/hebrews/7-24.htm

Will the office of priesthood be even needed or last forever? If not, then it will cease & aion in this verse cannot refer to an endless duration.
After God becomes “all in all” (1 Cor.15:28) priesthood may no longer serve any purpose. Likewise with kings (cf. 1 Tim.1:17 above).

"The most ancient manuscripts omit the words, “for ever” ", i.e. they omit the Greek word aion:

biblehub.com/commentaries/1_peter/1-23.htm

As do the NASB, NIV, ESV, ASV, DBY, ERV, & most at:

biblehub.com/1_peter/1-23.htm

and also this:

Greek-English Interlinear:
Index of /interlinear/1_peter

Actually God can be (and is) both immortal & existing “for a finite period at the same time”. For God lives both “today” and is “immortal”. Today is finite, so God will be for a finite period, namely “today”. Additionally, God is “immortal”. So when the finite time period “today” ends, He does not end, but lives on. That God will be living “today” and also at the same time be “immortal” are two distinct and different facts, not redundant facts telling us the same thing. Likewise the fact God is both aionian (eonian) & immortal in 1 Tim.6:16 do not require they be redundant or that eonian mean eternal or endless time.

Aionios is related to time in the Scriptures, not eternity:

in expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian (Titus 1:2)
Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian,(2 Tim.1:9)
Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, 26 yet manifested now
and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the eonian God being made known to all nations for faith-obedience (Rom.16:25-26)
but we are speaking God’s wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates before - before the eons, for our glory (1 Cor.2:7)

If time ends, the “times eonian” (Titus 1:2; 2 Tim.1:9; Rom.16:25) end & eonian ends with the beginning of eternity, then in Scripture eonian can never mean endless or everlasting.

The eons had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7, etc) & may also have an end (1 Cor.10:11; Heb.9:26).

Young’s Literal Translation (1 Tim.6:16)
who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom is honour and might age-during! Amen.
Concordant Literal Translation
Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!
Rotherham’s Emphasized Version
Who alone hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable,—Whom no man hath seen—nor can see: unto whom, be honour and might age-abiding. Amen.
Emphatic Diaglott NT
the only one having deathlessness, light dwelling in inaccessible, whom saw no one of men, nor to see is able; to whom honor and might age-lasting; so be it.
Emphatic Diaglott (margin)
…to whom be Honor and Might aionian. Amen

quod.lib.umich.edu/m/moa/AKR176 … view=image
studybible.info/CLV/1%20Timothy%206
scripture4all.org/OnlineInte … f/1ti6.pdf

Re Greek scholar Deissman:

"Adolph Deissman gives this account: “Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the
Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third
century, is scratched in Greek: ‘I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian
(epaionion) and almighty…’ If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than
endless time?” "

tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter9.html

The Greek text is on p.275ff of the following url. The English translation follows.

“I adjure thee by the great God, the eternal and more than eternal and almighty, who is exalted above the exalted Gods.” (p.277)

“The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D.; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century,1 that is— to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible — about the time of Origen.” (p.279)

ia800300.us.archive.org/4/items … isuoft.pdf

The “corruption” is not stated to be endless, so it does not necessarily follow that the life or eonian or life eonian must be endless.

Be not decived, God is not to be sneered at, for whatsoever a man may be sowing, this shall he be reaping also, 8 for he who is sowing for his own flesh, from the flesh shall be reaping corruption, yet he who is sowing for the spirit, from the spirit shall be reaping life eonian. (Galatians 6:8; Concordant Literal Version).

Origen, the Early Church Father, speaks a number of times of after aionios (eternal) life, thereby making it finite in relation to a coming age or ages, such as, e.g.the millennial kingdom eon age. Christ also speaks of aionios life in the age to come (Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30). And Daniel 12:2 refers to olam life followed in verse 3 by “olam and beyond”, thereby making olam life in this context finite.

John 10:28 is a repeat of the same verse addressed below at verse #15 on your list of 19 verses (actually only 18, & just 17 that have aion/ios in them).

In John 6:58 death is not contrasted with aionios, but with live. Aionios is not the opposite of death.

And the world is passing by, and its desire, yet he who is doing the will of God is remaining for the eon. (1 Jn.2:17, CLV)
and the world doth pass away, and the desire of it, and he who is doing the will of God, he doth remain – to the age. (YLT)

For the eon or age here can certainly refer to a finite eon such as the millennial age eon kingdom of Christ, or also the eon
of the second death (lake of fire) until death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God becomes “all in all” (v.28), even all who
were ever in Adam (v.22).

Actually aion (and therefore aionios) can be the opposite of a “little while”. See previous comments above re 2 Cor.4:17-18 & “moment”.

Those who “in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality” will be given “aionios life”. Aionios (eonian) life is the special reward for those who believe. They get life in the eonian period called the 1000 years in Revelation, i.e. the millennial age eon. Unbelievers will not get eonian life in the age to come. As we see in 1 Tim.4:9-11, God is the Saviour of all men, but specially of them that believe. For believers get the special gift of grace of eonian life. Others will lose out on that & be punished. But even they shall be eventually saved (Rom.5:18-19; Rev.5:13; 1 Cor.15:22-28; etc).

biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/1-33.htm
studybible.info/ACVI/Luke
studybible.info/IGNT/Luke

Darby Bible Translation
and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for the ages, and of his kingdom there shall not be an end.

This is what it actually literally says:

Luk 1:33 and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation. (CLV)

It is about reigning over the house of Jacob and the time limit is “for the eons.”

Here is the full verse with context:

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and Son of the Most High shall He be called. And the Lord God shall be giving Him the throne of David,
Luk 1:33 His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. (here is the second half of the verse you allude to And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation."

Christ eventually hands over the kingdom to His God and Father (1 Cor.15:24-28) and quits reigning (1 Cor.15:25).
So His reign “for the eons” over the house of Jacob (Lk.1:33) is not forever, but finite. Therefore the phrase
“for the eons” in Lk.1:33 is of finite duration & the translation “forever” is wrong, misleading & deceptive.

If someone said to me “I have had no rest day or night”, this could mean for a period of 24 hours. Not forever and ever.

If someone said to me “I’ve had no rest day or night for ages”, this could mean for a finite period of days, weeks or months. It doesn’t mean forever. BTW the phrase ‘forever and ever’ in Rev.14:11 literally translates as “to ages of ages”. So having no rest day or night for “ages” can mean for a short or long time of finite duration, not forever.

Here is the literal translation from a Greek-English Interlinear:

biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/14-11.htm

Many other similar examples could be given with a literal translation.

Scripture also speaks of night being “no more”. So can “day and night” be forever?

For 12 arguments re “ages of ages” ending, see posts 130 & 131 @

christianforums.com/threads … 864/page-7

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of “every creature” & to emphasize this again he repeats “and all that are in them”:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - “the Lamb that was slain” (v.12 & 13).

And I am giving them life eonian, and they should by no means be perishing for the eon, and no one shall be snatching them out of My hand. (Jn.10:28, CLV)

Evidently this may refer to a future eon & not the disciples time in the first century A.D., since they did perish or die. The coming eon will include the millennium or 1000 years of Revelation 20. Even during that millennial age eon some will die (Isa.65:20), but Jesus says here in Jn.10:28 that believers will not perish “for the eon”.

Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. (Isa.65:20)

Unbelievers will not enter the millennial age kingdom of Christ, but perish, according to verses in John above. It is noteworthy that it doesn’t
say they perish “without end” or “endlessly”. They are raised at the great White Throne judgement of Revelation 20 & ultimately saved. For Jesus
is the Lamb Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29) & their Saviour (Jn.4:42) Who will draw them to Himself (Jn.12:32).

For neither is the Father judging anyone, but has given all judging to the Son, 23 that all may be honoring the Son, according as they are honoring the Father. He who is not honoring the Son is not honoring the Father Who sends Him." 24 Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life. (Jn.5:22-25, CLV)

Here we see that all judging has been given to the Son for a positive end, that all may be honoring the Son.

Believers have life eonian, as long as they don’t lose their salvation. Then they would lose this gift of grace of eonian life and come into condemnation again.

Actually in that verse death is not contrasted with aionios. Death is contrasted with its opposite life. Aionios life is the gift of God (Rom.6:23)
to those who believe. Eventually all will recieve life (verses 18-19 of the same chapter).

None of these sources support your aionios theory. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent, whom you quote, opposes it, saying:

“The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting.”

“…The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.”

“… Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods.”

“…Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness.”

“…There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded.”

books.google.ca/books?id=oDVxDQ … ed&f=false

hopefaithprayer.com/books/W … incent.pdf


#82

Not in Greek. A Greek adjective’s meaning can’t be greater than it’s noun equivalent.


#83

In every instance of the Greek word “αιωνιος” (aiōnios) in both the New Testament and the Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament, the translation “lasting” or “enduring” fits every context perfectly.


#84

How does eonian or aionian fit?

Translation of the New Testament from the Original Greek Humbly Attempted by Nathaniel Scarlett Assisted by Men of Piety & Literature with notes, 1798: “And These will go away into onian punishment: but the righteous into onian life.”

The New Testament by Abner Kneeland, 1823:
“And these shall go away into aionian punishment*: but the righteous into aionian life.”

The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson, 1884:
“And these shall go away into onian chastisement, and the just into onian life.”

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
“And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.”

The Holy Bible in Modern English, 1903
“And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life.”

The New Testament in Modern Speech, 1910:
“And these shall go away into the Punishment 1 of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life 1 of the Ages.”

  1. [Of the Ages] Greek “aeonian.”

A Critical Paraphrase of the New Testament by Vincent T. Roth, 1960
“And these shall go away into age-continuing punishment, but the righteous into life age-continuing.”

The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, 1976
“And these shall go away into age-abiding *correction, but the righteous into **age-abiding life.”

The Twentieth Century New Testament, 1900
“And these last will go away into onian punishment, but the righteous into onian life.”

The People’s New Covenant, 1925
“And these will depart into age-continuing correction, but the righteous, into age-continuing life.”

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
“And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life.”

The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958
“And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life.”

The New Testament, a Translation, 1938
“And these will go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life.”

The New Testament, A New Translation, 1980
“Then they will begin to serve a new period of suffering; but God’s faithful will enter upon their heavenly life.”

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
“And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life.”


#85

Look Origen, you said:

Some say… The evidence of the two covenants overlapping is the “deposit” or “downpayment” (KJV “earnest”) mentioned in 2 Cor. 1:22, 5:5 and Eph.1:14. We take this today to refer to this invisible, either felt or unfelt influence of the Spirit, which is supposed to be the “downpayment” on heavenly bliss after death or the return of Christ. Or some might take it as a sense of “assurance” (admittedly limited) we have now.
But this “promise” in these passages is redemption itself in the first place. All of this shows entrance to the Kingdom was not completely secure yet, so they had this “downpayment” on it until the time had come (Hence, Rom.8:16). But this surety itself is the promise they were waiting for.
The period of Law was finally ended when the Temple was destroyed (AD70), and Jerusalem basically transformed into an antetypical “Gehenna” (the lake of fire and brimstone, fulfilling the prohpecies of Jer. 7:31-33, 19:2-13 and Isa. 34:4-10 cf. Rev. 14:11, 20:10).
This was in their lifetimes, and the only event that could fulfill “the end” spoken about in the prophecies.
“The world” (usually aeon; “age”) referred to the Old Covenant. “New Heavens and New Earth” refers to the final fruition of the new covenant, when death [spiritual, that is, and the one that was our biggest enemy; much more so than physical death] was abolished. (“Heaven” in prophetic language represented the government of Israel; while “earth” represented, originally, the land of Israel. “The whole world/earth” meant the Roman Empire, which then encompassed the land of Israel. Evidence of this is the fact that Col.1:23 and Rom.10:18 say that the Gospel had ALREADY spread “to the ends of the earth”! Col.1:6, 16:26, Rom.16:25-27, Acts 2:5, 11:28 also show this taking place, and that there were already “devout men, from every nation under heaven”).
After the destruction in AD70 (which may have included some sort of visible appearance of Christ alluded to by Josephus, and the actual “rapture of the saints” —we are still waiting for), the proverbial “left-behind” then went on to comprise the new Church. Yet they did not understand what had just occurred, and thus continued to look for something in the future, and then began developing (corrupting) into Catholicism, as leaders sought a stronger organizational system to deal with ongoing persecution and schism.
It is pointed out that there were two major groups of dissension in the Church before the destruction of Jerusalem: the Judaizers and the Gentile separatists. The Judaizers of course lost all their power, but the Gentile separatists (who would be the ones we can see Paul warning in Romans 11) are then the ones who gained power in the Church, and what did they do, but teach exclusion? (e.g. antisemitism took hold among many of the early fathers)
All of this makes all of Christian history finally make sense now! (Church historians had mentioned a so-called “lost century” between the last apostles, and the first Church fathers, in which the Church was clearly becoming more “Catholic” in doctrine, practice and organization).
The whole century surrounding AD70 would become “lost” because of the events and the sudden rapture of the Church.* The “church” was afterward no longer guided by the Spirit, and rapidly fell into purely human error and confusion of doctrine with no divine authority to resolve them (except for their own claims of authority.) :wink:


#86

If that is supposed to be an argument in support of what follows, i.e. your theory/interpretation re Romans 1:20 & 16:26, that is circular reasoning…it assumes what it needs to prove & can’t.

Again, circular reasoning. Assuming what it needs to prove but can’t. You’re reading your opinion into the texts and ignoring context completely. The word or idea of how long God has existed from eternity past to eternity future is no part of the context of Romans 16, nor implied there anywhere. Instead it is talking about a finite time long ago, a “mystery hidden for long ages past” (v.25), not eternity past or eternity future. The same word, aionios, is used twice & applied to finite ages past & to God Who was God during those ages. That’s a more probable understanding of the passage, if context means anything to you at all.

Moreover aion/ios is equivalent to olam. Yet when Scripture says God is from olam to olam (Psa.90:2; 103:17), the first olam cannot be eternal or endless. For the olam/aions had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7). This proves that aion/ios in reference to God need not necessarily mean eternal, e.g. as in Romans 16:25-26. Even your favorite translation, JPS, translates olam as “of old” [not “eternal”] when applied to God’s goings (Hab.3:6).

The argument is aionios & aidios both refer to God. And since aidios means eternal, so must aionios. That’s silly. If that were true then dozens of other Greek terms applied to God also mean eternal, such as the Greek words for “King”, “Lord”, etc. That is ridiculous.

Aionios is related to time in the Scriptures, not eternity:

in expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian (Titus 1:2)

Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian,(2 Tim.1:9)

Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, 26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the eonian God being made known to all nations for faith-obedience (Rom.16:25-26)

but we are speaking God’s wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates before - before the eons, for our glory (1 Cor.2:7)

Those verses show that eons (ages) & times eonian had a beginning. They can’t be eternal in the past. Can they be eternal in the future, according to Scripture?

If time ends, the “times eonian” (Titus 1:2; 2 Tim.1:9; Rom.16:25) end & eonian ends with the beginning of eternity, then in Scripture eonian can never mean endless or everlasting.

The eons had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7, etc) & may also have an end (1 Cor.10:11; Heb.9:26). If so, then arguably that which is eonian must end as well.

Here in post #'s 130 & 131 are 12 arguments that the phrase “ages of the ages” is finite in Scripture, including some re all ages (eons) ending:

christianforums.com/threads … 864/page-7

Re Greek scholar Deissman:

"Adolph Deissman gives this account: “Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: ‘I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty…’ If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?” "

tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter9.html

The Greek text is on p.275ff of the following url. The English translation follows.

“I adjure thee by the great God, the eternal and more than eternal and almighty, who is exalted above the exalted Gods.” (p.277)

“The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D.; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century,1 that is— to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible — about the time of Origen.” (p.279)

ia800300.us.archive.org/4/items … isuoft.pdf

Similarly we have the words of Greek scholar & Early Church Father, Origen.

Here is Origen’s commentary on John where in chapter 13:

13:19 “And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life”.

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32
By Origen

books.google.ca/books?id=TuHTu3 … &q&f=false

More examples showing aion & aionios, often deceptively mistranslated as ‘eternal’, as being used of finite duration, could be multiplied many times (as in the urls below). Here is another example of aionios used of finite duration, from early Church Father, Chrysostom:

“For that his[Satan’s] kingdom is of this age,αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present ageαιώνι] …” (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

newadvent.org/fathers/230104.htm

hopebeyondhell.net/articles/ … /eternity/

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeon

tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

saviourofall.org/Writings/aion.html


#87

According to your own theology many things are unseen, yet not eternal, e.g. Satan, demons, etc.

Satan’s kingdom is unseen, yet not eternal. Compare this quote by Early Church Father Chrysostom:

“For that his[Satan’s] kingdom is of this age,αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present ageαιώνι] …” (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

The Greek text is here:

ia801309.us.archive.org/27/item … _vol_4.pdf

Compare also the very next verse of the context:

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eonian αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens. (2 Cor.5:1)

First, in this verse it says “aionios in the heavens”. Scripture says the heavens which now are will pass away. So if these heavens are temporary, so also can aionios be temporary in 2 Cor.5:1.

Secondly, that the house is not dissolved for an aionion (eonian) period of time does not necessarily mean that eonian means eternal in this verse. For example if something is not dissolved for the eon of the millennial age eon, that doesn’t mean the millennial eon is eternal.

Furthermore, Aionios is related to time in the Scriptures, not eternity:

in expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian (Titus 1:2)

Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian,(2 Tim.1:9)

Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, 26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the eonian God being made known to all nations for faith-obedience (Rom.16:25-26)

but we are speaking God’s wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates before - before the eons, for our glory (1 Cor.2:7)

If time ends, the “times eonian” (Titus 1:2; 2 Tim.1:9; Rom.16:25) end & eonian ends with the beginning of eternity, then in Scripture eonian can never mean endless or everlasting.

Also the eons had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7, etc) & may also have an end (1 Cor.10:11; Heb.9:26). If so, then arguably what is eonian also must end.
Here in post #'s 130 & 131 are 12 arguments that the phrase “ages of the ages” is finite in Scripture, including some re all ages (eons) ending:

christianforums.com/threads … 864/page-7


#88

[tag]Origen;[/tag] [tag]Paidion[/tag] how would you translate 2 Cor 4:18 keeping in mind that αιωνια is plural adjective and there is no noun to modify it in the verse.


#89

I’ll let Paidon answer that since i know next to nothing about Koine Greek.


#90

We do not contemplate the things that are seen but the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are lasting.


#91

I understand your interpretation Mark, though let’s consider if there might be another equally reasonable interpretation.

Chrysostom is saying some think of punishment as being PROSKAIROS (for a season), rather than AIONION (eonian, pertaining to an eon or eons, age, [long] lasting).

Chrysostom is arguing that Scripture does not say punishment(chastening or corrective discipline) is only for a season, only for a few months, but that it is EONIAN, lasting for a long time, an epoch, age, or ages, eon or eons.

[BTW, similarly, there was an ancient belief of some of the Jewish Rabbis that those who go to Gehenna come out of it later, one view saying they stay up to 12 months maximum.]

The contrast is between a very short time and a very long time.

If you look in English dictionaries, they also make similar contrasts. They say, for example, that “moment” is the opposite [antonym] of “age”, eon, etc… Just as short is the opposite of long.

So i suggest that Chrysostom, and St Paul, was making a similar contrast, between a momentary or seasonal period of time, and another period of time of relatively great duration.

For a meaning of PROSKAIROS being “for a season”:

biblehub.com/greek/4340.htm

"It is often claimed that in 2 Corinthians 4:18, “eonian” (aiõnion) must mean “eternal” because it is set in contrast to the word “temporal,” meaning pertaining to time as opposed to eternity. The Greek word, however, translated “temporal” in the AV (proskaira) has no connection with the word for “time” (chronos); in English form, the Greek is literally TOWARD-SEASON, and means “temporary” or “for [only] a part of a season.”

"Contrastive terms need not be antithetical in meaning. Our Lord deemed it sufficient contrast to compare temporary (i.e., a part of a season) with a single season–less than a year (Matt.13:21). Yet here, in 2 Corinthians 4:18, while the contrast is far greater, it does not follow that it is therefore infinite. The contrast is between our afflictions, which last, so to say, but for a brief “partial season,” and our promised, long-enduring “eonian” glory which lasts throughout the oncoming eons, until the consummation, when God is All in all. The eonian life and glory which is our special portion (cp 1 Tim.4:10b; 2 Tim.2:10,11), no more debars the endless life and glory in which we shall participate as well (cp Luke 1:33b; 1 Thess.4:17b; 1 Cor.15:28), than youthful happiness precludes the happiness
of maturity.”

concordant.org/expositions/the-e … -part-two/
concordant.org/expositions/human … part-four/

“Now, in this passage, Paul is using proskairos and aiónios in contrast with each other. But notice that he is not contrasting time (which would be the word “chronos” in Greek) with timelessness. Instead, he is contrasting two different measures of temporal duration (i.e., two different measures of time). In Matthew 13:21, Christ employs proskairos to denote a relatively short measure of time. It is used in reference to those who hear the gospel and endure in their faith for only “a short while” in contrast to those who, after hearing the word, keep it and go on to produce fruit. Christ is not contrasting a temporary period of time with an endless measure of time; rather, Christ is contrasting a relatively short measure of time which does not result in the production of “fruit” with a relatively longer period of time that does (similarly, in Hebrews 11:25, proskairos is translated “a short season” or “fleeting,” and denotes the relatively short-lived enjoyment that sin brings). But the opposite of proskairos isn’t endless duration, for proskairos doesn’t mean finite duration. Its meaning is clearly relative to whatever is in view. Again, when Christ uses the word in Matt 13:21, he isn’t contrasting a person who endures in his faith for a finite period of time with a person who endures in his faith for an infinite period of time; he’s contrasting a relatively short period of time with a relatively longer period of time (i.e., relative to a person’s mortal lifespan).”

“In the context of 2 Corinthians 4-5, proskairos conveys a relatively short measure of time (i.e., duration confined to a mortal lifetime, during which time one can see and experience one’s mortal self “wasting away”). Aiónios, on the other hand, while not meaning endless duration, denotes a much longer duration of time (i.e., the duration of the eons to come, the full length of which is not explicitly revealed in Scripture). So when Paul says that “the things that are seen” are proskairos (i.e., fleeting, or pertaining to a relatively short measure of time) while “the things that are unseen” are aiónios (i.e., pertaining to, or enduring through, the eons to come) he places our present, mortal bodies in the former category of things, and our future, immortal bodies in the latter category of things.”

"But why does Paul refer to our immortal bodies as “eonian, in the heavens,” since this word does not denote endless duration? It’s because he has in view the blessing that will be enjoyed exclusively by believers, prior to the time that Paul calls “the consummation” (i.e., when death is abolished by Christ and all are vivified or “made alive” in him). Paul has in view only those who are members of the body of Christ, and the heavenly allotment they alone will enjoy during these coming eons. This blessing for believers (in which they will enjoy immortality in heaven during the final two eons) is eonian in duration, not “eternal.” When the last two eons (the eons of Christ’s reign) come to an end, the believer will not lose his immortality. He will continue to live. But his life will, at this time, no longer pertain to (or be enduring through) the eons of Christ’s reign. The special, eonian salvation he enjoyed as a result of being in the body of Christ will have come to an end. For at this time, God’s “purpose of the eons” will have reached its goal: all people will have been made immortal and saved, and God will be “all in all.” "

thathappyexpectation.blogspot.ca/2015/01/

Even if by aionion Chrysostom means eternal in 2 Cor. 4:18, he still uses aionios of a finite duration no longer than an age in his other quote. Which would indicate that, as you yourself evidently agree, words often have a range of meanings. This is what universalists usually say re the word aionios. The question, then, is, what is its meaning, in the range of its possible meanings, in key passages that speak of punishment of the lost after Christ’s return.


#92

Context determines the meaning of a word. The same word can have more than one, or even many, meanings in different contexts.

So, to illustrate, if aionion means “eternal” in one context, it can mean a finite age or ages, epoch, era, millennium, lifetime, 3 days, long time, lasting, etc, in other passages.

In order to refute universalism you need to prove the word aionion means “eternal” when speaking of punishment. Arguing that it means “eternal” in regards to life proves nothing.

Universalists mostly agree that aionion sometimes means “eternal” & at others times it doesn’t. Call that position A. And the following position B:

Some universalists, however, argue that in Scripture aionion never means eternal & that it always refers to an age, ages or a period of time that is finite. For more on that view see, for example, points 8 & 9 at posts 130 & 131 at:

christianforums.com/threads … 864/page-7

Which leads us to the passage you refer to, 1 Jn.1:2, & the interpretation of the aforementioned “position B”. It says Christ is life aionion, as 1 Jn.1:2 is to be understood. That doesn’t mean that is everything Christ is. Christ is much more than that. After the aions end He will still be life, just as He was during the aions. He is both the life eonian and more than life eonian. He is life during the eons and life after the eons. So to say Christ is eonian life does not prove aionion means eternal. In fact, since the aions end, according to Scripture (Heb.9:26; 1 Cor.10:11), the eonian times (Titus 1:2, etc) must also end, as must eonian punishment (Mt.25:46). But since Christ & the saints will have immortality, incorruption, etc, their life will be endless.

BTW it’s impossible for “life eonian” to be endless in the past because the eonian times had a beginning (Titus 1:2; Rom.16:25; 2 Tim.1:9). Are you going to argue that Christ had a beginning, too?

Christ Himself connected eonian life with the eon to come (Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30), yet Scripture speaks of multiple eons (ages) to come (Eph.1:21; 2:7; Lk.1:33; Rev. 22:5). So eonian life there can be understood to be restricted to a finite eon.

“In the Gospels there are instances where the substantive aion and the adjective aionios are juxtaposed or associated in a single image or utterance (most directly in Mark 10:30 and Luke 18:30). This obvious parallel in the Greek is invisible in almost every English tanslation” (p.540, The New Testament: A Translation, by EO scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017).

Considering Lk.18:30 above, ECF John Chrysostom limits aionios to a specific age of finite duration:

“For that his[Satan’s] kingdom is of this age,αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present ageαιώνι] …” (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

newadvent.org/fathers/230104.htm

Also another Early Church Father by the name of Origen spoke of what is “after” and “beyond” aionios life. As a native Greek speaker & scholar he knew the meaning of the word:

“…in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond
eternal life.” (Comm. in Io 13.3)

N.T. Wright is considered to be a leading NT scholar & his translation renders “life aionios” as “the life of God’s coming age” (1 Jn.1:2, NTE). Compare:

Weymouth New Testament
the Life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness, and we declare unto you the Life of the Ages which was with the Father and was manifested to us–

Young’s Literal Translation
and the Life was manifested, and we have seen, and do testify, and declare to you the Life, the age-during, which was with the Father, and was manifested to us –

And the life was manifested, and we have seen and are testifying and reporting to you the life eonian which was toward the Father and was manifested to us. (CLV)

And, the Life, was made manifest, and we have seen, and are bearing witness, and announcing unto you, the Age-abiding Life, which, indeed, was with the Father, and was made manifest unto us; (Ro)

(and the life was manifested, and we have seen, and we bear testimony, and we declare to you the life the age-lasting, which was with the Father, and was manifested to us (Diaglott Greek-English interlinear)

…the AIONIAN LIFE…(Diaglott margin)

and announce to you the life of the Age…(The NT: A Translation, by EO scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017).

Indeed the Chayyei [Olam] was manifested, and we have seen it and we give solemn eidus (witness of testimony) and we proclaim to you the Chayyei Olam which was alongside with HaAv [Yochanan 1:1-4,14] and made hisgalus (appearance of, exposure of in revelation) to us [Shlichim]. (OJB)

Speaking of OLAM, we now turn to Dan.12:2-3, which also supports the above position:

The context suggests the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), since v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM “and further”.

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Dan. 12 are the words “OLAM and further” showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Dan. 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 could also both be understood as being of finite duration.

Additionally, the early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Dan. 12:3:

καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning “and further” or “and still” or “and yet” & other synonyms.

eti: “still, yet…Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition.” Strong’s Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) – still, yet

εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means “into the ages and further” as a translation of the Hebrew L’OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words “and further”, “futurity”, “beyond” & similarly.

3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere
and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Dan. 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
scripture4all.org/OnlineInte … /dan12.pdf

2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;
3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Dan. 12:2-3, Rotherham)

2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)

Dan. 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to “life OLAM” Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning of “life aionios”(life OLAM) in Mt.25:46 & elsewhere in the New Testament.

Verse 3 speaks of those justifying “many”. Who are these “many”? The same “many” of verse 2, including those who were resurrected to “shame” & “contempt”? IOW the passage affirms universalism?

christianforums.com/threads … t-72154410


#93

So does insisting aionios life means “eternal life” deny the Trinity & the Deity of Christ?


#94

Eternal life (1 Jn.1:2) is aionion life. Aionion is the Greek word that KJV translated “eternal” there.

Scripture teaches the aionion times had a beginning (Titus 1:2; 2 Tim.1:9) & the aions (eons, ages) had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7). Therefore aionion life must have had a beginning. So if you define Christ Himself as aionion life, you are defining Him as having had a beginning. This denies the Trinity and the Deity of Christ. And contradicts your (and my) belief that Christ is God & always was God, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit.

We see here that the “times eonian”(aionion) had a beginning:

in expectation of life eonian[aioniou], which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian[aionion], (Titus 1:2, CLV)

before eternal times (Titus 1:2, Greek-English Interlinear, ACVI):
studybible.info/version/

Obviously there cannot be a “before eternal” past time. That would be nonsense. Therefore these “eternal”[aionion/eonian] times must have had a beginning.

Likewise with 2 Tim.1:9,

G4253προG5550χρόνωνG166αιωνίων
…BEFORE…TIMES…AIONION(EONIAN)

“before times of the ages[aionion]”:

biblehub.com/interlinear/2_timothy/1-9.htm

Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian, (2 Tim.1:9, CLV)

Similarly 1 Cor.2:7 speaks of “before the eons”[aionon], i.e. “before the ages” (NASB).
And Jude 1:25 says “before all the eons”[aionos], i.e. “before all ages” (NIV).

saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

So whatever you think of the “aionios life” in John 1:2, it cannot be eternal in the past and had a beginning.

In fact there is reason to think it refers to life in the age to come (e.g. the millennial age eon) and/or to the following age of the second death in the new earth. Which lasts until death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God becomes “all in all” (v.28), even in all who were in Adam (v.22).

Christ is that life of those ages. Believers obtain it. The wicked do not. Yet eventually all shall be saved (Rom.5:18-19; Rev.5:13, etc).

N.T. Wright is considered to be a leading NT scholar & his translation renders “life aionios” as “the life of God’s coming age” (1 Jn.1:2, NTE). Compare:

Weymouth New Testament
the Life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness, and we declare unto you the Life of the Ages which was with the Father and was manifested to us–

Young’s Literal Translation
and the Life was manifested, and we have seen, and do testify, and declare to you the Life, the age-during, which was with the Father, and was manifested to us –

And the life was manifested, and we have seen and are testifying and reporting to you the life eonian which was toward the Father and was manifested to us. (CLV)

And, the Life, was made manifest, and we have seen, and are bearing witness, and announcing unto you, the Age-abiding Life, which, indeed, was with the Father, and was made manifest unto us; (Ro)

(and the life was manifested, and we have seen, and we bear testimony, and we declare to you the life the age-lasting, which was with the Father, and was manifested to us (Diaglott Greek-English interlinear)

…the AIONIAN LIFE…(Diaglott margin)

and announce to you the life of the Age…(The NT: A Translation, by EO scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017).

Indeed the Chayyei [Olam] was manifested, and we have seen it and we give solemn eidus (witness of testimony) and we proclaim to you the Chayyei Olam which was alongside with HaAv [Yochanan 1:1-4,14] and made hisgalus (appearance of, exposure of in revelation) to us [Shlichim]. (OJB)


#95

christianforums.com/threads … 289/page-7

It’s no contradiction when you understand that “aionion times” had a beginning, which is implied by the fact that there was a “before” these “aionion times”. As Titus 1:2 says:

before eternal times (ACVI Greek-English Interlinear)
before the ages of time (IGNT Greek-English Interlinear)
before times eternal (Apostolic Greek Polygot, Greek-English Interlinear) studybible.info/
before times eonian (Online Greek-English Interlinear) scripture4all.org/OnlineInte … f/tit1.pdf
before time eternal (Greek-English Interlinear)
biblehub.com/interlinear/titus/1-2.htm

Therefore, since aionion/eonian has a beginning in the Scriptures, it can never be eternal in the past. So if you define Christ Himself as aionion life, you are defining Him as having had a beginning. This denies the Trinity and the Deity of Christ. And contradicts your (and my) belief that Christ is God & always was God, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit.

The deceptive KJV obscures the fact of God’s Word [and the Holy Spirit’s] teaching that there was “before times aionion” & therefore “times aionion” are not eternal in the past. It follows from that that what is aionion cannot be eternal in the past.

Titus 1:2

KJV In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Aside from the mistranslation “eternal” in some of the following versions, they translate the phrase in question - προ χρονων αιωνιων (pro chronon aionion) [before times eonian] - more accurately than KJV:

Berean Literal Bible
in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before time eternal
Jubilee Bible 2000
for the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before the times of the ages
American Standard Version
in hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before times eternal;
Darby Bible Translation
in [the] hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before the ages of time,
English Revised Version
in hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before times eternal;
Weymouth New Testament
in hope of the Life of the Ages which God, who is never false to His word, promised before the commencement of the Ages.
Young’s Literal Translation
upon hope of life age-during, which God, who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages,

AMP based on the hope and divine guarantee of eternal life, [the life] which God, who is ever truthful and without deceit, promised before the ages of time began,
DLNT on-the-basis-of the hope of eternal life which the non-lying God promised before eternal times—
EHV based on the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began.
ESV in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began
ESVUK in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began
EXB That faith and that knowledge ·come from [or lead to] the ·hope for [confidence/certainty of] ·life forever [eternal life], which God, who never lies, promised to us before ·time began [L eternal times].
JUB for the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before the times of the ages
LEB in the hope of eternal life which God, who does not lie, promised before eternal ages,
MOUNCE for the sake of the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before times eternal,
NRSV in the hope of eternal life that God, who never lies, promised before the ages began—
NRSVA in the hope of eternal life that God, who never lies, promised before the ages began—
NRSVACE in the hope of eternal life that God, who never lies, promised before the ages began—
NRSVCE in the hope of eternal life that God, who never lies, promised before the ages began—
NTE in the hope of the life of the coming age. God, who never lies, promised this before the ages began,
OJB The mekor (basis) of this is a tikvah of Chayyei Olam which Hashem Who cannot speak sheker [BAMIDBAR 24:19; SHMUEL ALEF 15:29] promised before the Yamim HaOlam (days of eternity),

in expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian (CLV)
In hope of life age-abiding; which God, who cannot lie, promised before age-during times, (Ro)
in hope of life age-lasting, which promised the not false God before times age-lasting, (Diag)
on hope of eternal life which the God who does not lie promised before the eternal times (GLT)

before eternal times (ACVI Greek-English Interlinear)
before the ages of time (IGNT Greek-English Interlinear)
before times eternal (Apostolic Greek Polygot, Greek-English Interlinear) studybible.info/
before times eonian (Online Greek-English Interlinear) scripture4all.org/OnlineInte … f/tit1.pdf
before time eternal (Greek-English Interlinear)
biblehub.com/interlinear/titus/1-2.htm

christianforums.com/threads … 289/page-7


#96

From Christian forums dot com:

Easy to say. Another thing to prove. Can you prove the “aionion” fire (Jude 1:7) that burned Sodom burned forever? Is Sodom still burning? If that fire was temporary & not “eternal”, why must the use of the same words, aionion fire, in Matthew 18:8 & 25:41 mean the fire is “eternal”? Is Love Omnipotent an eternal sadist infinitely worse than what Satan, Hitler & Stalin have done combined?

By that logic one day Jesus being with the disciples “will one day expire”, since Jesus said:

teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age. (Mt.28:20)

You have merely asserted that, but provided no evidence, argument, reasoning or proof that what you allege is true and not false.

No. Is Jesus being with us only temporary since He said:

teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age. (Mt.28:20)

How much more will the blood of the Annointed, who through a Spirit of That Age* offered himself unblemished to God, purify our conscience from dead observances, for worship of a living God! (Heb.9:14, DBH, * “An aeonian Spirit.”)

Through the Spirit of that age, e.g. the Holy Spirit that will reign in the millennial age of 1000 years, or the Holy Spirit of this present age, Jesus “offered himself”. Does that mean this present age or the millennial age will last forever? No. Does that mean the Holy Spirit will die when those ages end? No. No more than Jesus’ words in Mt.28:20 mean He will only be with His disciples in this age & not after this age.

Is Jesus being with His disciples temporary since He said:

teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age. (Mt.28:20)

And having been perfected he became a cause of salvation in the Age for all who are obedient to Him (Heb.5:9, DBH).

“salvation in the Age”, e.g. the millennial age kingdom. Those who are not “obedient to Him” will not partake of that salvation. Does that limit salvation to only the millennium age? No, for the saved will also have immortality, incorruption, always be with the Lord, pain will be no more, etc (Lk.20:36; Rev.21:4; 7:14-17; 1 Cor.15:42-57, 1 Thess.4:17, etc). Eventually all will have salvation that never ends, for God will be “all in all” (1 Cor.15:22-28; Rom.5:18-19; Phil.2:9-11; etc).

Not by blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood, he entered once and for all into the Holy of Holies, having obtained an emancipation payment for the Age (Heb.9:12, DBH).

Those that obey Him (Heb.5:9) obtain redemption in “the Age” (Heb.9:12). Those that don’t obey Him will not, though even they will be eventually saved along with the saints, as referenced above.

The same words, aionios kingdom, are used of Satan’s kingdom. Are you going to argue that Satan’s aionios kingdom is “eternal”? Early church father Chrysostom wrote that Satan’s aionios kingdom will end:

“For that his[Satan’s] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] …” (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

The Greek text may be found here:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/02g/0345-0407,_Iohannes_Chrysostomus,_In_epistulam_II_ad_Thessalonicenses,_MGR.pdf

Will Christ’s aionios kingdom of the millennial aion (=eon/age) last forever? Obviously not.

Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Rev.20:6)

For thus the entrance into our Lord and savior Jesus the Annointed’s Kingdom in the Age shall be lavishly provided you (2 Peter 1:11, DBH).

And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Rev.20:4b)

Does that mean they only live for 1000 years & their life is temporary? Does that mean they reign only for 1000 years and their reign is temporary?

to whom the honor and might of the Age; amen (1 Tim.6:16b, DBH)

The power of Jesus in the millennial Age no more denies His power after that age or in this present age than your teenage years deny your adult years. Just because your teenage years ended, that doesn’t mean you ended. That God is the God of Abraham or Israel does not deny that He is the God of all the earth. To say that God is the Sovereign God of this present wicked age does not mean He is temporarily God or will cease to be God after this present eon ends.

God’s glory of that Age. Same idea as 1 Tim.6:16 above.

Now we know that, if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a home of the Age, in the heavens, not made by hands. (2 Cor.5:1, DBH*).

Paul already told the Corinthians, in his first epistle to them, that the resurrected body will be “immortal” & “incorruptible” (1 Cor.15). To repeat that again in 2 Cor.5:1 would be redundant.

The “heavens” (2 Cor.5:1) are not eternal, but will pass away. So why assume that “the Age” (2 Cor.5:1) is eternal? After the millennial Age ends the heavens will pass away (Rev.20). That doesn’t mean the immortal body will pass away. Obviously it cannot.

.* The New Testament: A New Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale University Press

More examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

.https://www.christianforums.com/threads/two-questions.8069145/page-4#post-72837159

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as “endless”, “no end” & “never be saved” as per:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2937070-how-scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html

Jesus didn’t use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn’t believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

.https://www.christianforums.com/threads/could-an-eternal-punishment-simply-mean-that-once-instituted-it-will-not-change.8070705/page-2#post-72885429

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into “the ages of the ages”) being finite:

.https://www.christianforums.com/threads/for-the-lord-will-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038


#97

Actually, the adjective αιωνια modifies the understood noun “things. What Paul actually wrote was only the definite article “τα” which standing alone is translated “the things.” Since “τα” is plural, the modifier " αιωνια” must be plural.


#98

A discussion at christianforums.com said:

[QUOTE=“BNR32FAN, post: 73457938, member: 401065”]No my friend you simply need a little help with Greek translations. The Greek word aiṓnios (G166) and aiṓn (G165) not only mean age but also mean eternal or everlasting. Let’s examine shall we.

but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness – to the age (aiṓn G165) but is in danger of age-during (aiṓnios G166) judgment;’

Now let’s compare this with other similar scriptures.

John 3:16

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son – the only begotten – He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during (aiṓnios G166)

Surely God didn’t send Jesus to die so we can have life for a little while. I’m confident that you are a believer of eternal life?

[/QUOTE]

The point of John 3:16 is to contrast eonian destinies in the eon to come, not teach about endless or final destinies. Final destiny was already taught by John earlier in the same book:

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Taking away the world’s sin (Jn.1:29) shall make the world sinless. So, yeah, all will be saved.

Final destiny is also taught in John 3:17 (see below) & John 4:42, etc:

They said to the woman, "We now believe not only because of your words; we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man truly is the Savior of the world. (Jn.4:42)

For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eonian (aionion) life. (Jn. 3:16).

In John 3:16 there is no question that those who are believing - shall - not perish. Even though the subjunctive “should” is used. For it is used with the hina (so that) indicating purpose or result.

Likewise, in the very next verse, Jn.3:17, the hina occurs again with subjunctive, just as it does in John 3:16:

For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

There we see God’s reason in sending His Son, namely to save the world. That was the Diivine will of God, Who is Love Omnipotent. And notice what BDAG says about the “divine will”:

“In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the divine will…” ἵνα — с греческого на все языки

More literal versions of John 3:16 say:

16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)

16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)

16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for “perish” is used of the prodigal son who was “lost” but later found. He was ruined, not annihilated.

Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as “eternal life”. Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20).

Unbelievers will not. They go to “hell” until they repent & are saved, since God becomes “all in ALL” (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), “the Saviour of the world” (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

John 3:16 says unbelievers “perish”, not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say “perish endlessly” there was a Greek word for “endless” He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words “no end” (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

“While we are on the topic, however, I might mention that, alongside various, often seemingly contradictory images of eschatological punishment, the New Testament also contains a large number of seemingly explicit statements of universal salvation, excluding no one (for instance, John 3:17; 12:32, 47; Romans 5:18-19; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:14, 19; Philippians 2:9-11; 1 Timothy 2:3-6;4:10; Titus 2:11; Hebrews 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Colossians 1:19-20; 1 John 2:2 … to mention only some of the most striking). To me it is surpassingly strange that, down the centuries, most Christians have come to believe that the former class of claims—all of which are metaphorical, pictorial, vague, and elliptical in form—must be regarded as providing the “literal” content of the New Testament’s teaching, while the latter—which are invariably straightforward doctrinal statements—must be regarded as mere hyperbole. It is one of the great mysteries of Christian history (or perhaps of a certain kind of religious psychopathology).”

Anent Garry Wills and the “DBH” Version

He is asking Jesus how to obtain life in the eon/age to come when Christ & the saints will live & reign for 1000 years:

Mt.19:16 And lo! one coming to Him said, "Teacher, what good shall I be doing that I should be having life eonian? (CLV)

Rev.20:4c And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years

Mk.10:30 who may not by all means be getting back manyfold in this era, and in the coming eon, life eonian.

Mark 10:30 above & Luke 18:30 indicate “life eonian” is obtained in the “coming eon”. If that is the millennial 1000 year eon/age, then it is finite.

Presumably the questioner of Mt.19:16 was aware of the Hebrew Scriptures & Daniel 12:2 where “eonian” destinies, not final destinies, are being contrasted. So arguably he would not have understood “eonian life” to mean “eternal life”.

The context of Dan.12:2 suggests the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), since v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM “and further”.

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life

and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning

of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."

(Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Dan. 12 are the words “OLAM and further” showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Dan. 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 could also both be understood as being of finite duration.

Additionally, the early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Dan. 12:3:

καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning “and further” or “and still” or “and yet” & other synonyms.

eti: “still, yet…Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition.” Strong’s Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) – still, yet

εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means “into the ages and further” as a translation of the Hebrew L’OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words “and further”, “futurity”, “beyond” & similarly.

3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere

and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Dan. 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;

3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Dan. 12:2-3, Rotherham)

2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.

3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)

Dan. 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to “life OLAM” Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning of “life aionios”(life OLAM) in Mt.25:46 & elsewhere in the New Testament.

Verse 3 speaks of those justifying “many”. Who are these “many”? The same “many” of verse 2, including those who were resurrected to “shame” & “contempt”? IOW the passage affirms universalism?

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for “shame everlasting”(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong’s Greek: 152. αἰσχύνη (aischuné) – shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: “For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget”.

In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, “shame everlasting [eonian]” in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.

See my comments above. They apply again to Mt.19:29, which is a parallel passage to Mark 10:30 & Luke 18:30, quoted above, which arguably limit “eonian life” to the “eon to come” which is finite.

Christ Himself connected eonian life with the eon to come (Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30), yet Scripture speaks of multiple eons (ages) to come (Eph.1:21; 2:7; Lk.1:33; Rev. 22:5). So eonian life there can be understood to be restricted to a finite eon.

“In the Gospels there are instances where the substantive aion and the adjective aionios are juxtaposed or associated in a single image or utterance (most directly in Mark 10:30 and Luke 18:30). This obvious parallel in the Greek is invisible in almost every English tanslation” (p.540, The New Testament: A Translation, by EO scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017).

Considering Lk.18:30 above, ECF John Chrysostom limits aionios to a specific age of finite duration:

“For that his[Satan’s] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] …” (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

Also another Early Church Father by the name of Origen spoke of what is “after” and “beyond” aionios life. As a native Greek speaker & scholar he knew the meaning of the word:

“…in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life. And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life.” (Comm. in Io 13.3)

Sometimes Eternity Ain’t Forever: Aiónios and the Universalist Hope

N.T. Wright is considered to be a leading NT scholar & his translation renders “life aionios” in the parallel passages not as “eternal life” but as “the life of the age to come” (Mk.10:30) & has “in the age to come they will receive the life that belongs to that age” (Lk.18:30) & “will inherit the life of that new age” (Mt.19:29).

Final destiny for the people, Israel, of the rich man in Matthew 19 was already taught by Matthew earlier in chapter 1:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Mt.2:6b …my people Israel.

The “His people” referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon…

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won’t be free again until you have paid the last penny.

“They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing – which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they’ve been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages.” Why affirm belief in Hell?

continued in my next post…


#99

In light of Isaiah 65:20, references such as those found in John 8:52-52; & 11:26 may refer to not dying for the coming eschatological eon (e.g. the millennium), as opposed to those who die during that eon at the young age of 100:

Isa.65:20 “Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

On that view Jesus’ remarks in John 11:26 were telling His hearers that those who believe in Him will be among those who do not die in that eon, and not those who are cursed & die.

There’s nothing about “never” dieing in John 8:51-52 or Jn.11:26:

26 And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. (CLV)

26 and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die—to the age; (YLT)

26 And, no one who liveth again and believeth on me, shall in anywise die, unto times age-abiding. (RO)

26 and all the living and believing into me, not not may die into the age. (DG)

(Greek-English Interlinears at the urls below say:

26 …into the age

26…to the age

26…into the eon

26…to the age

John 11 δε NOW τις CERTAIN λαζαρος LAZARUS απο FROM βηθανιας BETHANY εκ FROM της THA κωμης TOWN μαριας OF MARIA και AND μαρθας MARTHA της THA αδελφης SISTER αυτης OF HER ην WAS ασθενων SICK

John 11:26 Interlinear: and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die – to the age;

Your version changed the literal translation of the Scriptures that speaks of an “eon” into the “never” of man’s traditions. Tsk,tsk.

[QUOTE=“BNR32FAN, post: 73457938, member: 401065”]

John 10:28

28 and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish – to the age (aiṓn G165), and no one shall pluck them out of my hand;

Surely you can see a pattern forming here my friend. I’m surprised that you obviously have access to the Greek Interlinear Bible and you haven’t noticed this before?[/QUOTE]

See my comments regarding John 8:51-52; 11:26 just above & my remarks re John 3:16-17 at the top of the previous post. They apply here also.

Regarding the Greek word aionion:

Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon gives “lasting for an age” as its first definition:

Strong’s #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Moulton & Milligan state “In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance…or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life.”

Strong’s #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions

Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as “endless”, “no end” & “never be saved” as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn’t use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn’t believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an ‘eternal punishment’ simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into “the ages of the ages”) being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER: