Thanks, Jeff. 
I think many Christians dont look at their heart. They’ll just use that scripture, Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 
Now how crazy is that? 
Wow! You know Calvinists would put the percentage even lower, like maybe 99.9 percent. 
Either way, according to most of Christendom, billions of people will suffer forever or be annihilated. Many of who could be your precious loved ones. And what would be the use of so many people being born if they’re only going to suffer for all eternity or be annihilated? How would that glorify God or make anyone want to worship Him? 
Seems many don’t really mind. They’ll say they deserved it…and that they didn’t have enough common sense to accept the Lord, therefore they deserve to suffer for eternity. Or they’re afraid to question God, lest he throw them in that burning hell forever…I think most Christians deep down inside if they are truly honest with themselves, are afraid of God.
As for the book of Revelation, i think it is both. Its definitively not all literal, that’s quite obvious. But some things are quite literal, so It’s both. I’m not sure what revival means as all symbolic with a literal meaning…
I wasn’t sure about that, either. I thought all symbols had a “literal meaning.” It’s only a symbol if it symbolizes something, right?
Exactly.
That’s not really an engagement with what I did write I believe pretty much what it says, I think. Those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark will taste the anger of Yahweh and be reformed inside the Lake of Fire for the ages of the ages.
9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. — Revelation 14:9-10
The text clearly says that those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark will drink the fullest strength of Yahweh’s anger. (As a Christian pacifist/anarchist, I have some views on what most of this could mean, but it’s largely irrelevant to our current discussion). What it does say, is that Yahweh gets awfully furious when people worship the Beast — whatever one thinks that is. But according to the whole witness of the Hebrew scriptures, Yahweh’s anger is only for a moment, for a loving purpose and its not an inherent quality or will. His anger is a cup, and cups contain measured, finite portions. It would simply be impossible to drink of Yahweh’s wrath forever; it will be poured out until it serves its purpose and runs dry. I suspect the divine anger is the reformation that I have described below.
Firstly though, I should note that there seems to be a lot of ambiguous etymology with some of these terms. But it seems that the words torment, fire and brimstone actually infer a remedial meaning. The word translated ‘torment’ is basanismos and is subjective pain, experienced upon an objective basis — here it seems to be by being in the presence of the Lamb; (in Lot’s experience, torment was from the presence of lawlessness; 2 Peter 2:8). That Adam must endure the divine purifying and presence of the Lamb, whom he hates would be immensely vexing. Creatures that hate light, are vexed by it. As the torment of Adam here is a purely subjective experience, upon the objective basis of being refined, it does not necessarily imply that Yahweh is actively tormenting anyone for any sadistic pleasure. Strong notes that this word “properly signifies in Greek (1) ‘to test by rubbing on the touchstone’ [basanos, “a touchstone”], and then (1a) ‘to question by applying torture’; hence (1b) ‘to vex, torment’.” This word then comes from the Greek word basanōs which means, according to Strong, “a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal”. We have here an inference that Adam will be tested, as within the process of smelting metals. This seems to be coherent with what performs that testing, namely “fire and brimstone” – two powerful and potentially painful things. John seems to be referencing Malachi here, who blatantly says (3:2-3) that Yahweh is like a refiner’s fire and like a launderers’ soap for the explicit purpose of purifying so “that they may offer an offering to Yahweh … in righteousness”. The brimstone (sulphur) John references was used for cleaning and medicinal purposes in Greek antiquity, something his audience would most probably have understood, (though Wikipedia is not a good enough source, you may still enjoy reading about it here). If you will indulge in a little of my own investigative speculation, I think it’s interesting that Pliny the Elder notes that the island of Melos was the best-known source of sulphur in the first century (ca. 70AD). Melos is an island only 250km further on from Patmos where John recorded his famous vision and is only 290km (as the bird flies) from Ephesus. This could mean that Ephesus (the first addressee of John’s letter) was a major port for the sulphur trade. As the six other cities that John writes to are founded upon a trade route that passes through Ephesus, I think it is reasonable to suspect that the Christians there were also highly familiar with its purifying uses (fumigation, medicine, and bleaching cloth). Though I imagine Malachi was John’s primary inspiration, I think my conjecture here may further explain the broader social context in which “brimstone” was being referred to and its implied meaning amongst the Christians throughout Asia-Minor. While Malachi uses this metaphor for the purgatory of the Sons of Levi (those of promise), John has clearly extended this metaphor to all of the unrepentant in 14: and 20:, and Yeshua seems to include both the believer and the nonbeliever alike in Mark 9:49. (Purgatory (not atonement) for believers was understood as the orthodoxy of the Church until the Reformation (where it was dumped because of a Roman Catholic distortion). Though I do believe the purgatory of the persevering believers will be significantly different to that of the nations. But I won’t insist you adopt this – it’s less relevant to our specific discussion on the purgatory of the unrepentant.)
Although I don’t pretend any of these inferences are conclusive, I do believe that they strongly suggest and support a universalist purgatory, one in which sees the nations emerged cleansed, with their sheepish kings tagging along behind them. In summary, it seems to me, by the testimony of Revelation, that Adam will experience a subjectively tormenting test, by being destroyed and refined with fire and “spiritual bleach” – to disinfect, deplague and whiten the soul. I personally believe as an Arminian-universalist, that this purgatory is the aionion seduction of Adam – the bringing to destruction so that Adam may repent (of his own God-graced will) and be cleansed. Calvinists may prefer a more forceful God. Either way, this is a truly terrifying process whilst one resists and should be avoided at all costs – Yeshua’s urgency should always be preserved; but it is not hopeless.
11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” — Revelation 14:11
I expect you to know that the words ‘forever’ and ‘eternal’ in most translations cannot uniformly mean ‘forever’ or ‘eternal’. In Revelation 14:11, “eis aiōnas aiōnōn” rendered as “forever and ever” just doesn’t make sense. If the redundant wording isn’t indicative of a poetical meaning (used in Psalm 21:4, for example), then the Greek clearly shows that it should be translated “for the ages of the ages”. Aiónas doesn’t mean ‘ever’ and aiōnōn doesn’t mean ‘forever’. So while the reformation of some (most?) of the nations may simply take ages and ages, I believe that, within eternity, Yahweh’s will shall be accomplished so that He may be all in all. If S/satan be a created being, then I believe at the consummation of the ages, he too, will be reformed (though it may take ages and ages). All of this withstanding, it is the fumes of their reformation that ascends “forever and ever”, not their reformation.
I am an Arminian too, so if you feel my interpretation destroys the will of man, I can explain why I believe it doesn’t. I really hope you engage with this post because I did spend a fair amount of time on it. Though you said you would, you are yet to respond to my earlier questions and propositions. Godspeed dear brother.
Purgatory, huh? Adam will experience a tormenting test, by being destroyed and refined with fire with spiritual bleach that whitens his soul. interesting concept, where in scripture do you get such a thing because Adam is in heaven with all the rest of the OT believers. (Eph 4:8)
Of course not, if forever and eternal actually meant what they actually mean it would destroy any concept of UR. Satan will be apart of this refining, too. What flavor of UR do you represent, brothers? News flash: Jesus did not die for Satan and his devils to be reconciled. He died to reconcile man and the heavens and the earth back to a Gen 1 and 2 state.
that’s an interesting use of a rather vague verse.
it says captives. it doesn’t say saints. in fact, it says he took captives…which could mean he captured some enemies and bound them up. what i’m trying to say is that using this verse to “prove” that Adam and the other OT “saints” (how could you be a saint before Christ came and died for you? all the OT people died in their sins…no sacrifice could’ve covered their sins…the sacrifice of animals was a foreshadowing of the Christ, according to most standard views i’ve encountered) are “in heaven” is …interesting.
yes, and if “all” means what it says it means, then the concepts of annihilationism and ECT would be destroyed.
didn’t it also say that Jesus came to destroy the works of the evil one? if that’s the case, then those works include rebelling against God.
if everything in heaven and on earth and under the earth is reconciled to God (yes i know you’ve tried to argue around this…as unsuccessfully as everyone else that’s tried to demote “all” to “some”), then so is the devil. but, again we’re at an impasse as you feel that the verses that say “all” do not mean “all”, whereas the verses that say age-enduring actually mean eternal in your view.
we say the opposite, and you can’t accept the reasoning.
very, very interesting.
God bless! may the light come on for you soon.
I am not talking about the individual Adam. Adam is figurative for cursed man (after all his name does mean “man”) à la 1 Corinthians 15:22. I noticed Auggy using it and felt it was a good metaphor, sorry for confusing you. But now that this misunderstanding has been cleared up, please engage with the rest of my post.
I represent an ancient flavour but it’s not important 
So let’s ignore Satan and his devils for now and just focus on “man and the heavens and the earth back to a Gen 1 and 2 state”. Are you saying that you concede the ambiguity of “eis aiōnas aiōnōn”? I admit, I had trouble following you there.
There is no scripture support for man going through some kind of refined spiritual bleach purgatory. It does matter what flavor of UR you represent because it just shows the inconsistency of this unbiblical belief in whatever flavor of UR. If the Holy Spirit were doing the teaching He gives the same doctrine to every Christian…no inconsistencies or confusion.
Rev 14:9-11 states there is no hope for you once you take the mark and worship the beast…its over for you…your eternal destiny has been sealed. God bless.
I have spent this whole thread trying to explain the scriptural support! And you have not seriously engaged with any of my views even once. It doesn’t matter what flavour I represent because you are clearly not receptive to any discussion or biblical exegesis whatsoever. I don’t understand why you have even come here. I am leaving this thread before I get angry.
Godspeed to your future studies, brother.
Andrew.
Sorry, I did engage it, maybe not to your liking. Your theology is as confusing as your language explaining it. There is no confusion when it comes to God or his word. God bless.
funny, i didn’t find it confusing at all.
And I would be extremely suspicious of how they arrived at those numbers. I mean, how do they know what percentage of Christians are actually saved?
Greetings everyone. I just read a post about this at 4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com
Here is the link if anyone is interested in this sister’s article:
4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.c … ch-results
Agape, Obadiah
**I just realized that I only put the link to the sister’s main page.
She has written many articles and posts. ( See her profile and "Link to Directory of Articles) She is an anointed sister.
Here is the link to just the article “Who are the Kings of the Earth.
pearl-kingsofearth.blogspot.com/” **
Agape, Obadiah
Yes, and originally you just double-posted the same link, so I deleted the extra one.
So, you just now read her article on the kings of the earth, and then… somehow came to this forum next? I’d be curious to hear how that happened.
Or did you read the thread here, and then went looking around and also subsequently found that article, then came back here to add a link to it?
Hi Jason,
Sorry for the odd style in my posting. I am not very good at this “forum style” posting. I have been to a couple of other forums and the way to put a link in is different at them. That is why I double posted. (Thanks for fixing my double posting)
The reason I found your forum was that I went to Google and typed in “Who are the Kings of the Earth” to see if I could bring up Pearl’s article that way, and the article from this Christian site came up. I was very interested in seeing what other Christians saw in the scriptures. Jesus uses whom he wishes to do God’s will since he is God’s representative. When I saw that the article here was in harmony with the one Pearl wrote and most of all is in harmony with scripture, I thought Christians here might be interested in examining Pearl’s scriptural backing on the subject.
I think all Christians should be searching for the Bible’s answers to this question as well as others.
Agape, Obadiah
So you knew about Ms. Pearl’s article already before doing the Google search to see if her one-article weblog on the topic turned up. You didn’t just recently discover it, after being here a while, and then decide to bring it to attention. I guess her search-engine optimization strategy was working, though. 
This isn’t really an article. This is a discussion thread, where different members have different assessments of the scriptural testimony; we have some other threads discussing the topic as well, and in more detail than in this thread. You’re welcome to discuss the topic, too, here or elsewhere.
Certainly, and they’re welcome to discuss and compare the data and the logic of the approaches here if they want.
We do that a lot, so you should be right at home here.
Thanks Jason. I will stop in now and then. I am really busy though trying to make a living. LOL
Agape, Obe