jeffA, what kind of music do you play? Is that a mandolin? I’m no musician btw so excuse me if I completely misdiagnosed your instrument
I have an idea
lets use this “logic” to challenge one of his beliefs.
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For free will to be true, there must be verses in the Bible that say man has a free will.
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Nobody can show me those verses.
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Therefore free will is false.
Let that one sink in! 
Yes that is a mandolin. I also play guitar and piano. I love acoustic music and play in a band of 4 people doing original music (guitar, flute, mandolin and violin mostly - but our virtuoso violin player is also a near concert level pianist - he’s just too talented 
)
And now back to the OT 
This is the first time I’ve read this thread so pardon me for my late response.
Concerning John’s use of Jesus being the ruler of kings (1:5) and King of kings (17:14) in Revelation, it’s a title of ultimate power. Ultimately He is over all. Jesus is King over these kings even though these kings are under the wrath of God in 6:15, battled againt Jesus at Armegeddon (chp 16), committed adultery with the harlot (17:2), rule along with the Beast (17:12), wage war against the King of kings (17:14), submitted to Babylon the woman (17:18), commited adultery with Babylon (18:3,9), and were killed by the King of kings (19:18-19).
From what I can see, there is NO internal evidence from Revelation to suggest that the kings represent anything but ungodly earthly authorities, authorities set against the King of kings. To interpret them otherwise is to twist it to fit one’s beliefs, eisegesis.
Thus, based upon John’s use of “kings” throughout Revelation, the “kings” in 21:24 that are seen submitting to God, worshipping God with their wealth, is a picture of all these powers ultimately submitting to God, walking by the light of the new Jerusalem! That is “IF” one interprets Revelation Futuristically. Of course, Revelation being apocalyptic literature is open to a wide range of interpretations. I don’t believe it was meant to interpret systematically, but emotionally and artistically.
well said, everyone.
the amusing thing is that Mr Revival claims ultimate truth based on context, and ignores the greater context in every case.
also, i love how his old rantings are no longer his current belief set, and yet somehow we’re still to believe that he has special knowledge and is definitely right this time…
JeffA, I’d love to hear your music. Do you have a YouTube channel?
That’s where I made my grand mistake. I wasted so much! I’m such a bad steward 
Alas, I’ll get over it somehow.
Hmmm… Not once has Revival seriously engaged with my attempts at exegesis on this thread 
To be honest, I’ve spent a fair amount of time here trying to show that the kings of the earth are indeed the kings of the earth. I would have appreciated some serious engagement (even if it were reasonable and compelling refutations). Well, I guess, I’m out. I actually have things to do.
What do you see happening in Rev 14:9-11?
Hi Cindy,
We haven’t posted anything on youtube yet but there are a few clips of the duo here…
brodyr-music.info/music/tales-fr … io-samples
and the 4 piece here (we are just starting to record an album as the band so only the first and third links here are of the band the other 2 are the same as the site above)
What we are recording now has been written recently whereas the stuff currently on the sites is quite old material.
and now back to the OT…
Can we bring it back and stick to the OP, please?
I think that’s what I just said didn’t I?
Thanks, Jeff.
I think many Christians dont look at their heart. They’ll just use that scripture, Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 
Now how crazy is that? 
Wow! You know Calvinists would put the percentage even lower, like maybe 99.9 percent.
Either way, according to most of Christendom, billions of people will suffer forever or be annihilated. Many of who could be your precious loved ones. And what would be the use of so many people being born if they’re only going to suffer for all eternity or be annihilated? How would that glorify God or make anyone want to worship Him? 
Seems many don’t really mind. They’ll say they deserved it…and that they didn’t have enough common sense to accept the Lord, therefore they deserve to suffer for eternity. Or they’re afraid to question God, lest he throw them in that burning hell forever…I think most Christians deep down inside if they are truly honest with themselves, are afraid of God.
As for the book of Revelation, i think it is both. Its definitively not all literal, that’s quite obvious. But some things are quite literal, so It’s both. I’m not sure what revival means as all symbolic with a literal meaning…
I wasn’t sure about that, either. I thought all symbols had a “literal meaning.” It’s only a symbol if it symbolizes something, right?
Exactly.
That’s not really an engagement with what I did write I believe pretty much what it says, I think. Those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark will taste the anger of Yahweh and be reformed inside the Lake of Fire for the ages of the ages.
9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. — Revelation 14:9-10
The text clearly says that those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark will drink the fullest strength of Yahweh’s anger. (As a Christian pacifist/anarchist, I have some views on what most of this could mean, but it’s largely irrelevant to our current discussion). What it does say, is that Yahweh gets awfully furious when people worship the Beast — whatever one thinks that is. But according to the whole witness of the Hebrew scriptures, Yahweh’s anger is only for a moment, for a loving purpose and its not an inherent quality or will. His anger is a cup, and cups contain measured, finite portions. It would simply be impossible to drink of Yahweh’s wrath forever; it will be poured out until it serves its purpose and runs dry. I suspect the divine anger is the reformation that I have described below.
Firstly though, I should note that there seems to be a lot of ambiguous etymology with some of these terms. But it seems that the words torment, fire and brimstone actually infer a remedial meaning. The word translated ‘torment’ is basanismos and is subjective pain, experienced upon an objective basis — here it seems to be by being in the presence of the Lamb; (in Lot’s experience, torment was from the presence of lawlessness; 2 Peter 2:8). That Adam must endure the divine purifying and presence of the Lamb, whom he hates would be immensely vexing. Creatures that hate light, are vexed by it. As the torment of Adam here is a purely subjective experience, upon the objective basis of being refined, it does not necessarily imply that Yahweh is actively tormenting anyone for any sadistic pleasure. Strong notes that this word “properly signifies in Greek (1) ‘to test by rubbing on the touchstone’ [basanos, “a touchstone”], and then (1a) ‘to question by applying torture’; hence (1b) ‘to vex, torment’.” This word then comes from the Greek word basanōs which means, according to Strong, “a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal”. We have here an inference that Adam will be tested, as within the process of smelting metals. This seems to be coherent with what performs that testing, namely “fire and brimstone” – two powerful and potentially painful things. John seems to be referencing Malachi here, who blatantly says (3:2-3) that Yahweh is like a refiner’s fire and like a launderers’ soap for the explicit purpose of purifying so “that they may offer an offering to Yahweh … in righteousness”. The brimstone (sulphur) John references was used for cleaning and medicinal purposes in Greek antiquity, something his audience would most probably have understood, (though Wikipedia is not a good enough source, you may still enjoy reading about it here). If you will indulge in a little of my own investigative speculation, I think it’s interesting that Pliny the Elder notes that the island of Melos was the best-known source of sulphur in the first century (ca. 70AD). Melos is an island only 250km further on from Patmos where John recorded his famous vision and is only 290km (as the bird flies) from Ephesus. This could mean that Ephesus (the first addressee of John’s letter) was a major port for the sulphur trade. As the six other cities that John writes to are founded upon a trade route that passes through Ephesus, I think it is reasonable to suspect that the Christians there were also highly familiar with its purifying uses (fumigation, medicine, and bleaching cloth). Though I imagine Malachi was John’s primary inspiration, I think my conjecture here may further explain the broader social context in which “brimstone” was being referred to and its implied meaning amongst the Christians throughout Asia-Minor. While Malachi uses this metaphor for the purgatory of the Sons of Levi (those of promise), John has clearly extended this metaphor to all of the unrepentant in 14: and 20:, and Yeshua seems to include both the believer and the nonbeliever alike in Mark 9:49. (Purgatory (not atonement) for believers was understood as the orthodoxy of the Church until the Reformation (where it was dumped because of a Roman Catholic distortion). Though I do believe the purgatory of the persevering believers will be significantly different to that of the nations. But I won’t insist you adopt this – it’s less relevant to our specific discussion on the purgatory of the unrepentant.)
Although I don’t pretend any of these inferences are conclusive, I do believe that they strongly suggest and support a universalist purgatory, one in which sees the nations emerged cleansed, with their sheepish kings tagging along behind them. In summary, it seems to me, by the testimony of Revelation, that Adam will experience a subjectively tormenting test, by being destroyed and refined with fire and “spiritual bleach” – to disinfect, deplague and whiten the soul. I personally believe as an Arminian-universalist, that this purgatory is the aionion seduction of Adam – the bringing to destruction so that Adam may repent (of his own God-graced will) and be cleansed. Calvinists may prefer a more forceful God. Either way, this is a truly terrifying process whilst one resists and should be avoided at all costs – Yeshua’s urgency should always be preserved; but it is not hopeless.
11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” — Revelation 14:11
I expect you to know that the words ‘forever’ and ‘eternal’ in most translations cannot uniformly mean ‘forever’ or ‘eternal’. In Revelation 14:11, “eis aiōnas aiōnōn” rendered as “forever and ever” just doesn’t make sense. If the redundant wording isn’t indicative of a poetical meaning (used in Psalm 21:4, for example), then the Greek clearly shows that it should be translated “for the ages of the ages”. Aiónas doesn’t mean ‘ever’ and aiōnōn doesn’t mean ‘forever’. So while the reformation of some (most?) of the nations may simply take ages and ages, I believe that, within eternity, Yahweh’s will shall be accomplished so that He may be all in all. If S/satan be a created being, then I believe at the consummation of the ages, he too, will be reformed (though it may take ages and ages). All of this withstanding, it is the fumes of their reformation that ascends “forever and ever”, not their reformation.
I am an Arminian too, so if you feel my interpretation destroys the will of man, I can explain why I believe it doesn’t. I really hope you engage with this post because I did spend a fair amount of time on it. Though you said you would, you are yet to respond to my earlier questions and propositions. Godspeed dear brother.
Purgatory, huh? Adam will experience a tormenting test, by being destroyed and refined with fire with spiritual bleach that whitens his soul. interesting concept, where in scripture do you get such a thing because Adam is in heaven with all the rest of the OT believers. (Eph 4:8)
Of course not, if forever and eternal actually meant what they actually mean it would destroy any concept of UR. Satan will be apart of this refining, too. What flavor of UR do you represent, brothers? News flash: Jesus did not die for Satan and his devils to be reconciled. He died to reconcile man and the heavens and the earth back to a Gen 1 and 2 state.
that’s an interesting use of a rather vague verse.
it says captives. it doesn’t say saints. in fact, it says he took captives…which could mean he captured some enemies and bound them up. what i’m trying to say is that using this verse to “prove” that Adam and the other OT “saints” (how could you be a saint before Christ came and died for you? all the OT people died in their sins…no sacrifice could’ve covered their sins…the sacrifice of animals was a foreshadowing of the Christ, according to most standard views i’ve encountered) are “in heaven” is …interesting.
yes, and if “all” means what it says it means, then the concepts of annihilationism and ECT would be destroyed.
didn’t it also say that Jesus came to destroy the works of the evil one? if that’s the case, then those works include rebelling against God.
if everything in heaven and on earth and under the earth is reconciled to God (yes i know you’ve tried to argue around this…as unsuccessfully as everyone else that’s tried to demote “all” to “some”), then so is the devil. but, again we’re at an impasse as you feel that the verses that say “all” do not mean “all”, whereas the verses that say age-enduring actually mean eternal in your view.
we say the opposite, and you can’t accept the reasoning.
very, very interesting.
God bless! may the light come on for you soon.