Well, I have to admit that I was wrong in saying that Rom 3:3 is the only place in the NT where any translation has “faith of God.”
Just now I seem to have remembered Jesus instructing His disciples to have faith in God. So I searched my Online Bible Program and found the following verse in Mark 11:22 in the English Standard Version.
Jesus follows this immediately with:
That sounds a lot as if Jesus is telling His disciples to have faith in God. Right? That’s the way a huge majority of translations render it. But in checking several different Greek manuscripts, I found that the word for “God” is in the genitive case in every Greek text I consulted. (Unfortunately none of the extant Greek manuscripts prior to 300 A.D. contains the verse). In the manuscripts that do exist, “God” is in the genitive case, and that indicates that it should be translated “Have faith Of God” and you can move mountains. I found four translations that do translate it “of God”:
So this statement of Jesus may support Williams’ thesis. However, there seems to be another possibility. A person’s statement “I am thinking of my friend” seems tantamount to “I am thinking about (or concerning) my friend.” So it seems possible that “Have faith of God” could have the same meaning as “Have faith about God” or “Have faith concerning God.” In other words, “Have faith about what God can do.” Perhaps Jesus was indicating that if you have such faith about what God can do, you can command a mountain to be thrown into the sea, and God will do it.
Are WE supposed to have the faith of God? MW says we have no faith - but Jesus is telling us to have it.
The mustard-seed saying is meant to point out our faithlessness and encourage us to believe - or do we not have to believe either?
A muddle.
I think faith comes from Jesus, from beginning to end:
Yet “faith” is also listed in *“the fruit of the Spirit” *(Gal. 5:22); and my understanding of the fruit of the Spirit, is that it grows in us over time through our increasing cooperation with the Spirit. So, in that sense, faith becomes OURS, as something WE now have and WE manifest.
And speaking of faith becoming ours:
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(Me and “my” faith, kind of reminds me of me and my daughter when she was little: first I buy all the ingredients, then I get out every utensil needed, I pre-heat the oven, help grease the pan and read the ingredients, read out the directions and give firm guidance, but later proudly proclaim to anyone who will listen to me: “Try these wonderful cookies that Katy made! Aren’t they the best you’ve ever tasted in your life? Isn’t she becoming a great baker?”)
Joseph Prince discusses how that lady with the issue of blood didn’t go around saying, “I must have faith…I hope that I have enough faith…I will have faith…I will not lose faith.” No, she was only conscious of the grace of JESUS—how He always healed the sick, how powerful He was in raising the dead and how willing He was to use that power for her healing.
She just saw His grace abounding toward her, so much so that she said, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” And when she came behind Jesus and touched the very hem of His garment, she was healed. At that same moment, Jesus stopped, turned around and said to her, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.”
When the woman saw His grace, God saw her faith! And so it was by grace, through faith, that God’s promise became sure in her life (Eph. 2:8).
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Regarding the word “faith,” the distinction in Greek seems to me (currently) to show that there is,
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having faith—pistis/noun (by freely receiving it from Jesus), and then there is,
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manifesting faith, or “faithing,” that is “believing,” —pisteuō/verb (the verb form of pistis/noun).
Blessings.
PS Didn’t anyone benefit from the examination of Mark 9:23 (NASB) by Joseph Prince?
I read it, and liked this:
"That makes a world of difference! It’s not about how well or how much you can believe, but WHO you believe…
…Beloved, have faith not in your faith, but in Him who always believes and always wants to do good to you!"
He seems to agree that WE DO HAVE FAITH - contrary to MW.
Well, The ultimate faith in the bible is the faith that God had for Israel. He had time after time pronounced his love and intention and also the problems that would come if allegiance was not forth coming. He loved his people and wanted the best for them. Sent prophets, and ultimately His son, who was crucified for the very people he loved. So how can we argue about how strong God’s faith is? This is not about us, but what God has done. That is what Mr. Williams is talking about.
Chad, I appreciate you stating that.
I think MW made a mess of the presentation, if that’s what he was trying to get across.
It seems to me that you are referring to God’s faithfulness to Israel, and to us, and I say a hearty Amen! That is His faithfulness, not HIs faith, though.
MW is claiming something new - never to his knowledge having been revealed previously to anyone - so clearly he is not talking about ‘faithfulness’ because we all know God is faithful.
He may be saying something important - though I doubt he alone has secret knowledge that noone in salvation history has ever discovered. But he does not explain what he means. I tried hard to figure it out; my guess is that he hasn’t really got it nailed down himself yet. Just a guess, nothing personal.
Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of** your faith **produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
But let him ask in faith, with no doubting,
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”
Book of James ESV
So - when MW says we have NO faith, I get really confused.
Well I will say it as simply as possible, that God loved Israel, and thus through that group of people (nation) secured his big thumbs up for all the nations. Michael relates it to ‘ONE’ other people may have a different spin. This is truly good news. Why do we want to say he does not have it nailed down or that he may have some secret knowledge, hell man take what he gives and run with it It is good news. 
There is nothing that says you can not take what he says and put your own ‘opinion’ to it… It is ground breaking, or so I think 
I can’t take what he’s giving because I have no idea what it is. But that’s just me - keep running with it brother!
thnx Love ya bro!
As always, when confronted with something out of left-field it tends to raise more questions or confusion, but that is because we naturally “hear” and consequently assess according to the paradigm wherein we’ve been duly indoctrinated… so confusion is a bound given. That’s why I said, if it doesn’t quite gel then leave it on the shelf. I’m not an apologist for MW and on some things I see differently, BUT for me a lot more resonates than remonstrates within… although that wasn’t always the case as I too have had my fair share of “what the…?” moments, lol.
The basis for or of ‘faith’ is “belief” so look at it this way… just like Jesus, God has belief, i.e., He believes in us more than we do, that’s why it’s better or more beneficial to trust His faith (belief) than our own. MW isn’t saying we don’t have faith, he’s saying… God’s faith/belief is bigger, better and so more reliable. i.e., more trustworthy (another aspect of faith) than our own.
You’re right… but that is completely your own mumbo-jumbo and is in no way related to anything MW was saying. But this is what happens when you try and rationalise out of confusion, i.e., your own argument becomes, to use your word, “weird”.
MW was indeed at one point right in the middle of the WoF movement but renounced and walked away from it declaring it false.
Have a real think about what you just said… is THAT what you actually heard MW was saying?
Again… have a real think about what you just said. Is THAT not the EXACT same shallow rationale infernalists’ bring against your own universalism? My answer would be… whatever answer you would bring to justify your response to the infernalists’ charge, duly apply the same in this scenario.
You are totally misconstruing his point, i.e., it was Jesus’ obedience that overrides all else IN TERMS OF how God views, or believes in, man.
To say that we cannot have faith is contrary to our daily experience. We cannot live a day of our life without faith. When you sit down in a chair you have faith that it will support you. You don’t KNOW that it will support you. Once I saw a man sit down in a chair which then collapsed below him. Yet he had faith that it would support him, or he wouldn’t have sat in it.
When you enter your car to drive to work, you have faith that it will start. But you don’t KNOW that it will start. It may not.
You continue to exercise faith throughout a normal day. You cannot live a day of your life without faith.
The way I see it, there are three kinds of faith:
1. Experimental Faith. You try out some product. You don’t KNOW whether it will work or not, but you have a certain amount of faith or trust in the manufacturers. For example, a pilate gets into a plane that has never been flown, and takes it for a test flight. He has faith that the plane is reliable and won’t crash.
2. Experiential Faith. This faith is based on past experience. It worked in the past, and so you trust that it will work now. The examples I gave that you expect a chair to support you, or expect your car to start are examples of experiential faith.
3. Blind Faith. This is faith that has no basis. One exercises blind faith because one WANTS to believe that the thing is true. For example, Mrs. Jones has been told that her son has stolen chocolate bars from a store. “Oh, no!” retorts Mrs. Jones. I know my son! He would NEVER do a thing like that! Persons with blind faith will believe something they want to believe no matter how much evidence to the contrary is presented to them.
So it’s not that people cannot have faith. Everyone exercises faith in something every day. For a Christian, it’s a matter of WHO they are trusting or IN WHOM they are placing their faith. In general faith is “fond expectation.”
Hebrews 11: 1 (my personal translation)
Hebrew 11:2-6 (ESV)
Yep absolutely true and MW isn’t saying that.
We all have our mumbo-jumbo, but I don’t have it in this thread. The very logical questions I have asked are not answered.
Of course, I only listened to the 5 episodes, and hopefully they are not representative of the whole body of belief they are part of.
What is so NEW about MW’s teaching - and do YOU, Davo, believe he is the only man in history to understand this ‘new thing’? (AS he stated)?
Do you believe, as he stated, that we have NO faith? Come on, that’s just nonsense.
To say that God ‘believes’ in us - is NOT what MW was saying. He said WE were to have the faith (as James does) OF GOD (as James rightly does not).
The mumbo jumbo is, I"m afraid, on your side, or at least on MW’s. Again, I"m going only by the 5 episodes, but they were a wreck.
Yes, I think your confusion is apparent. It’s NOT that we don’t have “faith” we do… it’s whether we have saving or delivering faith, which religion thereby says lacks but then inevitably attaches performance as an indicator you have it. Whereas Jesus’ faith (belief) which demonstrated/reflected God’s faith (belief) being that which has truly saved and delivered — it’s comparative.
Yes Peter says… “add to your faith…” but this is attitudinal NOT performance-based requirements etc.
Of course it’s apparent - I’ve said it like a zillion times in this thread, duh.
NOW we’re talking performance based requirements??? Off the subject much???
Ok, you’re into the guy, and a true believer is usually a pita to try and talk sense to. Go forward, davo, with the faith of God.
I wouldn’t have a clue on that score… but I always try to look beyond the messenger, if you get my drift, and just because someone says thus and so doesn’t make it kosher, but I’m always open to having my boundaries pushed, but that’s me. Like I said… you may need to leave it on the shelf.
I think I dealt with that above in terms of its comparative use, i.e., trust God’s over ours in terms of His assessment of humanity (big picture), which is something we can do.
Michael in his book ‘ONE’ says this: