The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Why are there “thirsty” in Rev 22‘s heaven?

Revival,

Seems too shaky? How about impossible

Nope. Not impossible. Just that there seems to be a narrative break which probably means that John has shifted perspective to the world presently on Earth. That the “Bride” (the eschatological Body of Christ) is inviting people to “drink the water of life” which was just described as coming from the City certainly lends that view some credibility, just not enough that I would count it established or attempt to make a case there. But, still, the ground is no shakier than the exegetical ground on which literally any passage has been forced into the service of eternal torment.

since the evangelistic tone of Rev 22:16-17 is to the church toward people who are alive in the present world

Yeah, that’s probably right, but not absolutely so.

and not to people who have been handed an unpardonable penalty in the LOF.

And the reason it’s not absolutely so is because I refuse to read theology into the text, like that. When I see the people that were previously thrown into the Lake of Fire experiencing something that looks a lot like redemption–oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t go into quite enough detail. Let me try again. When I see entities named with names matching those of previously named entities, with no indications that they are, in fact, different entities and, moreover, pretty solid narrative continuity between the entities in question, who were, at one point, condemned, suddenly being redeemed and I have no real, solid exegetical evidence to conclude that they are different entities, the idea that the Lake of Fire is “unpardonable” suddenly seems like a theological contrivance rather than an exegetical conclusion. Then again, ECT as a whole seems like a theological contrivance rather than an exegetical conclusion.

Alex, I think you’re thinking of Ezekiel 47.

The passage in Rev 22, I see as pertaining to both now and into the future.

Sonia

True, but Rev 22:16-17 does not pertain after the unpardonable judgment in Rev 20:11-15…everyone after this are saved and living in eternal bliss. :wink:

Everyone? :astonished:

Everyone who is in Rev 21 after the unpardonable judgment.

I see. But where do you get this phrase “unpardonable judgment” from? I can’t see these words in Rev 20.11-15 which you refer to, not even in the KJV.

It’s always important to note the context, especially the immediate literary context.

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

Note that again judgment is based on “work” and “obedience”, not just on faith.
Note that Jesus does not clarify if He is speaking of the present, present and future, or future. And if He is speaking of the city as being in the present, then why would we interpret the previous mention of the new Jerusalem to be in the future? It would seem to me that both should be interpreted the same. If the New Jerusalem is interpreted to be in the future, then we should interpret this passage as speaking of in the future also. If the present, then the present for both. I believe that interpreting Revelation from a Spiritualist (present reality) perspective is the most compelling and convicting. Anyhow, so if one interprets Revelation from a Futuristic perspective, then these verses would best be interpreted futuristically also. And if that’s the case, then the Spirit and the bride are giving an invitation to those who are outside the city, outside the New Jerusalem. And I can only imagine how thirsty a person would become if they were consigned to the Dead Sea (the lake of the fire and the brimstone), surrounded by desert and toxic water, with the ash remains of Sodom and Gomorrah in view.

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails.

Does Love Fail to reconcile any whom God loves? Does Jesus fail to save anyone? Or is Jesus truly the savior of all?

You won’t see those words but the penalty rendered is final unless you can show me another judgment where God pardons His judgment in Rev 20:11-15.

I agree that one has to keep things in some context. That’s why I would interpret the entire passage above as a “postscript.” Jesus says He is coming quickly, though in the Revelation, we have already read of the story of His 2nd coming. This looks to me as though it were addressed to the (then) present day churches to whom John sent it.

But to be consistent, everything following, unless set off by some other transitional phrase, should likewise be seen as a postscript. Those who keep His commandments ALREADY have the right to the Tree of Life, which is symbolic (imo) of Jesus Himself. Those who eat of the Tree of Life have life within themselves. Those who have His life are already in and a part of the Holy City, which is His bride, His body, His temple, His family. We HAVE entered the Holy City already, if we do His commandments.

And what are His commandments? Jesus told the people in John 6 that the work that God requires of them is to believe on Him whom He has sent. He gave us a number of other commandments, but they are all boiled down to this: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, etc. and love your neighbor as yourself. Obviously we are incapable of this, but when we drink the Living Water, eat of the Tree of Life, enter into the Holy City, and live by His life, He does these things through us.

Outside are dogs and sorcerers, etc. (and such were some of us). These are outside the ekklesia (the Holy City). The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come!” I have to think that this statement is addressed at least in part to the members of the churches to whom John sent the Revelation. Some of them weren’t doing all that well after all.

Blessings, Cindy