The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Why Didn't God Stop Adam From Eating The Fruit?

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#32

but it IS Calvin’s will… and that of Augustine his “father” - what Wesley referred to as the “election unto reprobation”.
I apologize, but it just leapt into my corrupt mind…

I don’t really have a problem anymore with the OP question as I have a sort of “high christology” of Adam.
If we take seriously the scriptures that speak of orginal Man’s exalted authority - that he was to be “god in the flesh” so far as the affairs of this tiny and temporal earth are concerned, then he wouldn’t have been much of a “son in the image of YHWH” if he had not the capacity to will, make high-gravity decisions, and act on such. He had nothing to gain in the exchange except the knowledge of darkness which in hindsight was not a great thing to desire. But, as his Father, he had the capacity to assess such and was free to assert his bestowed authority. Thus he did.
I find the question of Eve’s sin to be more perplexing, but I admit I am so steeped in western post-modernism that I doubt I can even stare at the issue without my biases. That too is a longterm result of Adam’s shift.

oh and just to correct and earlier quip above: God/YHWH, so far as Adam understood, was not somewhere else… “in Heaven” from whence He might streak down to stop the act… He was right there

#33

Just for the record, I’m not a Calvinist. I believe God created man with free will and man did not lose this ability to choose after the fall. :wink:

#34

We call it ‘Autumn’ over here, and I assume that’s what you’re referring to because any other meaning to ‘the fall’ is unscriptural.

And a perfect man who, by definition, has nothing but perfect thoughts, words & deeds disobeyed God.
You really haven’t thought this through properly.
What’s new!

#35

You can believe what you want, but within the context of the choices God gives you, just remember:

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

For the record, I believe in free will and predestination. God does give us choices to make but makes it clear that he chooses us and predestines us. Our choices are within the confines of his choosing us. We can choose to sin or eat fattening foods, or kill another person. But he chose us before the foundations of the world. Notice that he didn’t just foreknow us. It wasn’t just knowledge beforehand. He chose us before he even created us.

#36

Aaron this question is asked by atheists to Christians as well. So, while I may have missed it, I would like to hear your rationale as well. To my understanding only strict Calvinists have an answer for this that UR’s couldn’t also apply.

Anyway, my answer is as follows:

  1. Anything finite is vulnerable to corruption.
  2. Thus, it is impossible for the Perfect to create anything absolutely incorruptible, since creation would by nature be finite. It can beget perfection but not create it, and even the begotten being must have always existed.
  3. There is no way for conscious, rational creations to acquire perfection without escaping the possibility of corruption.
  4. There is absolutely no way for conscious, rational creations to escape corruption without accepting a begotten nature from the Eternal Infinite, since finitude is corruptible.
  5. God the Father was always begetting the Son. To create more sons (presumably), they must be unbegetted. In other words, created.
  6. The continually attempted giving and the transfer of unbegetted natures to finite, rational creations through and in the Son, is the whole sad, tragic and yet ultimately triumphant and jubilant story of the human race.
  7. It is the supreme, paradoxical glory of God to raise up sons and daughters from vessels of dirt! :smiley:
#37

That’s not what I said or meant Revival. What I said and meant was that people who are afraid of punishment are not perfected in love, and that fear of punishment is a natural result of not living right, even if that punishment be understood as remedial. And I certainly haven’t said anything about God using “fear” to correct you personally.

#38

:confused: afraid of punishment? who is being punished in 1John 4:18? fear of punishment is a natural result of not living right?

Here is what you actually said Sherman:

Which one is it? Do you know what you are saying, Sherman? :blush: :unamused:

#39

Sin, death, corruption and the sin nature did not exist before the fall. Man and creation were in a state of perfection. Man and creation were in perfect harmony and unity with God before the fall. Man and creation were already one with Him in unity and spirit. God already had all of this before the fall. What UR is God already had set up before the fall because God told Adam to multiply and replenish the earth before the fall happened.

So, if it is God’s will is for none to perish why didn’t He sovereignly interfere and stop Adam? There are billions upon billions of people who are perishing right now in Hell. God could of prevented it. Why didn’t He?

#40

It is based on your statement, that you are wrong.

Romans 5:13-14
For till law sin was in the world: and sin is not reckoned when there is not law; but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam’s transgression, who is a type of him who is coming.

Sin did exist it was just not taken into account where there was no law. In fact, there is no such thing as a ‘sin nature’.

Romans 7:9-13
I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

The answer to your Op:

Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

#41

Auniversalist, I like your zeal but I said before the fall. The fall happened in Gen 3. there was no sin, death, corruption, and or sin nature in the world in Gen 1 and 2 before the fall. :smiley:

#42

One particular interpretation of the Bible teaches that billions of people are in everlasting hell. Thankfully, there are other ways of reading the text.

But supposing your particular interpretation is correct, you then have to decide if the God responsible for this catastrophe is worthy of your love and service. If God has has spectacularly failed in his duty of care towards his creation, how are you going to respond? Are you going to flatter and grovel in a pathetic attempt to save your own skin, or are you going to stand up like a man of integrity and charge this God with crimes against humanity? What if your righteous anger against this sort of feckless God is precisely what the true God desires to see? Abraham stood up against what he thought to be a pitiless God and discovered God was full of mercy. Job also raged against this sort of God. All heaven looked on in wonder as this miniscule, bipedal primate furiously faced up to God himself, demanding justice. God came at Job’s summons, spoke to him face to face, and declared him to be a righteous man.

#43

As Scripture states, Sin existed prior to the Law but it was dead. The moment the command came, Sin sprang to life. Sin existed prior to the Fall, but did not come into affect or life until God gave the command.

#44
#45

Sin and death were not released into the world until Adam ate the forbidden fruit in Gen 3. Prior to this creation was in a state of perfection.

#46

Though I disagree with your Lucifer theology, should you believe as you stated, you just proved my point and destroyed your premise.

Based on your own admission of your Lucifer theology, sin, death and corruption happened FAR before the fall of Adam. As I pointed out, they existed but were never imputed against Adam. Your idea that creation was perfect (should you believe in Lucifer) is reasonably unsound and your belief called into question since obviously you think that Lucifer was not a created being but a God that always was…

It gets more messy Revival, you enjoy my Zeal for God, but all zeal must be enlightened according to correct and vital knowledge.

**Romans 10:2 “I bear them witness that they have a [certain] zeal and enthusiasm for God, but it is not enlightened and according to [correct and vital] knowledge.”
**
Proverbs 13:16
All who are prudent act with knowledge, but fools expose their folly.

#47

:laughing: Lucifer’s rebellion did not release sin and death into the world…Adam’s did. Sin and death were not released into the world until Adam ate the forbidden fruit in Gen 3. Prior to this creation was in a state of perfection.

#48

Again demonstration with show this to be wrong.

Based on your theology:

Since Lucifer was already in the world, his sin most definitely bring sin and death into the world; however, based on your own belief of facts, you demonstrate a different conclusion than what you claim.

Premise: If Creation was perfect, there would have been no ‘crafty’ serpent in the Garden and no opportunity for deception to be utilized.

Proposition: That is, since the Serpent was in the garden (a Fallen Angel as your theology states) sin was already in the garden; and Lucifer, a created being (part of the creation of the heavens), would have shown that before Adam both sin and corruption was in creation.

Conclusion: Since Lucifer was in the Garden, creation was imperfect by his very presence before Adam and only prior to Lucifer was creation perfect.

Your theology is messy.

#49

Auniversalist

Romans 5:12
12 **Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, **and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: :smiley:

Messy? You don’t know my theology to make such an erroneous statement. :smiley:

#50

Indeed, and even if that is how you interpret what it means “sin entered into the kosmos”, you will have to drop and forget that Lucifer ever sinned or was ever in the Garden and re-evaluate the seriously flawed theology of 'Angelic rebellion from the Heavens". You cannot hold on to one belief and hold on to a contrary belief.

Also, kosmos does not mean world, kosmos has many definitions including 'sphere of influence over humanity".

Therefore we recognize:

Romans 5:12
12 **Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the “sphere of influence over humanity”, **and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: :smiley:

Why do we know that Kosmos is speaking of the sphere of influence over humanity and not ‘entire universe’ is because Paul repeats himself in the same verse “So death passed upon all men.”, and at not ‘so death passed upon all creation.’.

As demonstrated in verse later, sin was already in creation but was not taken into account prior to the Law and when God gave the commandment, sin came to life.

When did sin come to life? Was it when Adam disobeyed, or the moment God gave the command?

Romans 7:9
Once I was alive, but quite apart from and unconscious of the Law. But when the commandment came, sin lived again…<.>

Even Scripture states, sin was in the world before Adam transgressed the command.

#51

Speaking scientifically, there was lots of death and corruption in the world before humans first were guilty of conscious evil. Every time Gronk ate a banana, he killed zillions of plant cells. Every time he drank water, he killed zillions of microscopic creatures. Every time he scratched himself, off came zillions of dead cells. As for corruption, every time he pooed behind the bushes, decomposers sprang into action.

Corruption is a good thing. Imagine a world where nothing decomposed. In the same way, biological death is a good thing. Death makes room for something new. No death means no reproduction. No reproduction means no variation and selection, no biological evolution.

Theologically speaking, if there was no evil in Adam, Adam couldn’t have sinned. Everything must act in accord with its nature. If Adam by nature was morally perfect, perfect he must remain. A morally perfect Adam would perfectly reject sin. He could no more sin than a rock could fall upwards. But he did sin. How is that possible? Sin would be utterly repugnant to a morally perfect person. By analogy, would you eat a bowl of dog’s vomit?

Again, speaking theologically, the whole cosmos was made from primaeval chaos, from the dark water of Genesis 1. Earth was formed from the water, and Adam was made from this earth. But Adam wasn’t made of dry earth, but wet. He was formed from clay, and only wet clay can be shaped by the potter’s hand. So Adam had lots of water in him, lots of dark, primaeval chaos. In a word, Adam was able to sin because he was wet, because he was born of water. He was also able not to sin because he was born of the Spirit of God. In Adam, that which was born of water struggled with that which was born of the Spirit, and the darkness prevailed.