well, if eternal conscious torment is true, God has done a really bad job of communicating it. I mean really bad.
Agreed, Neil. On top of that, look at the different consequences:
- SUPPOSING UNIVERSALISM IS TRUE AND THAT GOD DID A BAD JOB COMMUNICATING IT: Then lots of people will get a pleasant surprise after they die. I don’t see a problem with that.
but…
- SUPPOSING EVERLASTING HELL IS TRUE AND THAT GOD DID A BAD JOB COMMUNICATING IT: Then lots of people will end up in Hell precisely because of God bungling His message. That would be a huge problem.
Hi Geoffrey
Why would lots of people end up in hell precisely because they mistakenly thought UR was true? I don’t understand.
good point…yup !
If I had a nickel for every person I’ve run into who thought Christian universalists were going to go to everlasting Hell because of the soul-destroying heresy of universalism… Well, I’d call off work. 
yep…true.
I appreciate your honesty and since I do not believe debate to be of any benefit, I will not try to counter anything you said. I do not wish to invalidate your genuine response to the indisputable stupidity that sometimes shows up in our conversations.
I agree, as it has been my experience also, that I see many pass through UR and become something that looks nothing like even fringe Christianity. I’ve been a “church-person” most of my life and have lived long enough to see patterns which help to shed light on certain behaviors.
One simple truth is that it is that often WE, as adherents to an ultimate salvation model, do not teach or model a sober and godly walk. We’re so glad that we get to “go to heaven”, that we fail to teach that such a thing has NEVER been God’s objective. Like with the primitive church, there is a lack of mature teachers in this revelation of God’s perfect and inclusive work. We must not only be patient in waiting for this to come about, but also lend ourselves to become those mature teacher of this more perfect way.
Additionally, those whose ungrounded trajectories overshoot sound doctrine and practice, were never of the faith. They were passing through. It is evident in that their new dogmas are to the exclusion of Christ. This generous doctrine of grace is like great wealth. Money doesn’t change people, contrary to what poor people say. Money exposes and magnifies that which was already in one’s heart. This great grace and its fruit of liberty are the same in nature. Those people were trouble in the prior churches, probably so also in their families and jobs. Anarchists at heart, whether against the laws of men or of God.
I understand your concerns. I simply disagree with the process by which you have drawn your conclusion. We do need order. We are so “burned” by prior religious contact and institutions, that I believe we recoil past reason and even shun orderliness and spiritual government. That is our great error. But though we do not know yet how to administer and apply this great news of God’s saving work in Christ, we cannot lay it to the blame of the revelation, which is to say that we also blame the Revealer. Rather, we should pray that the Lord send laborers worthy of the work.
But I trust that God has ordered your steps, even if that means you will circle back through this great message some day. If you, in full clarity of conscience, must take this step, do so in all sincerity, but I ask you to consider that perhaps you see the problems because you’ve been called to play a part in solving them.
God bless!
Hmmm… Interesting that you’re not a univeralist anymore but you still rightfully hold to a position held by L. Ray Smith, who was a Binitarian universalist. I think a case can be made for an “Open-Expanding Family” model of the Trinity (though I prefer the term Godhead) where grammatically/linguistically (according to Hebrew/Aramaic), positionally, and even through minority Eastern (particularly Syriac) patristic precedent (with occasional references to Old and New Testament Apocryphal/Psuedapigraphal works – i.e. the Gospel of the Hebrews), you’ll find an interpretation of the Holy Spirit, the Ruach HaKodesh, the Comforter as being the Divine Feminine, the Motherly role within Godself and Co-Sustainer of all creation. The Holy Spirit’s throne is the temple of the believer. The following link more or less describes what I currently believe about Elohim-Theon. Peace, brother:
Hello Daniel
I have just re-joined after a number of years away and so have only just read your post. This is the first time I’ve come across anyone who believed in universalism and then rejected it.
At first, I was simply astonished, but on thinking further, I wondered what you meant by “universalism”. If it’s a question of whether all humans (perhaps even only those who have lived since Jesus’s death and resurrection) somehow avoid “hell”, and “go to heaven” (both unbiblical concepts) then I can see there could be some question. Is that what you mean by the word?
If, on the other hand, you perceive (as I do) that God is faithful to every part of the creation without exception, across all time and space; that since he became a man he is inextricably entangled with the creation and it is therefore impossible that he could ever abandon any of it; and that God as that man on a cross poured his life freely and indiscriminately into the creation; and that God will heal and reconcile not only all humans to himself and each other but all parts or members of the creation - animals, stars, trees, microbes, extraterrestial life, if there is any) - and give them (us) abundant life and love endlessly - well, then how can this produce anything but peace and joy?
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